Is Legolas afraid to get his nails dirty?

[skip spence]

I've started to reread the trilogy in English for the first time in a while and one thing I noticed is that Legolas never seems to break a sweat. When there is hard work to be done Boromir always proclaims how lucky the company is to have strong men like himself around and he is quite right. In the snow of Caradhras it is he and Aragorn who clear a way through the snow and carry the hobbits across it. Later, at the rapids of Sarn Gebir, the two strong men alone carry the three boats up to the portage-way.

What, couldn't Legolas lend a hand now and then? Perhaps Gandalf is spared from a lot of back-breaking labour posing as an old man while Gimli lacks the height required for the above tasks, but what excuse does Legolas have? Is he worried about his hair-do? Or does he simply lack the strenght and endurance for hard labour?

And a more general question: Are men of the high race more physically imposing than Elves, particulary the Moriquendi? The examples of Turin and Tuor seem to imply this, although they undoubtedly were exceptional individuals.

What do you think?

[Galin]

Tolkien once described Legolas (this quote can be found reproduced in The Book of Lost Tales) when reacting to an artist's depiction of his character...

'He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock and through snow, the most tireless of all the Fellowship.' JRRT

I think this can be found in part II, IIRC.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

What, couldn't Legolas lend a hand now and then?

Good point. In the retreat from Caradhras couldn't he have
helped clear the snow and carry a hobbit?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Good point. In the retreat from Caradhras couldn't he have
helped clear the snow and carry a hobbit?

*The Dark Elf rolls his eyes*

Grunt work? Pffft! We leave such menial toil for men (whom an Elf of Imladris once likened to sheep), or to dwarves (when their short stature proves indispensible, like stooping over smithies to craft armor, or getting cobwebs out from under tables). We elves devote immense amounts of energy to philosophical pursuits and the arts, without which the free folk would suffer the darkness of ignorance (as well as a pronounced dearth of fashion sense).

However, during battle we can be counted on to save our allies from any danger (we did, after all, turn the tide at Helms Deep). Now, would you be so kind as to hand me a quiver of arrows. There are flying Nazgul that need to be shot down.

[skip spence]

Yeah, that's the impression I've got as well. The Elves are a just a bit too lofty to showel the manure so to speak.

[bilbo_baggins]

In fact, I've often wondered: did Elves even produce something as filthy as manure? They do eat food (lembas bread for instance), but then again, they are the Eldar, and could such lofty and wondrous creatures actually be associated with excrement?

Even though the description above states that Legolas was wondrously strong, it seems that in the stories, the Elves only use this strength to fight baddies, like Feanor and Fingolfin in the Sil. When does it say that the Elves used their strength in any purely physical, he-man (he-elf?), stone-lifting contest of strength?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Well, there were Elven smiths, and that is certainly a craft that needs physical power and stamina.

[MatthewM]

Good question skip! I never thought about it, but now that you bring it up...why didn't Legolas help more? Did he just look the other way when Boromir and Aragorn were toiling and breaking their backs and pretend he didn't hear them?

But like others have stated, Elves are very aloof - artsy, yet warriors in their own right. Tolkien's description of Legolas was actually a response to a reader who claimed Legolas was too feminine. Given that description, you would think Legolas wouldn't mind carrying a Hobbit down Caradhras. Maybe he thinks he is retired...being 1,000+ years old?!

Good question!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

In his meeting with Frodo in the Shire, Gildor said, "The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth." I suspect this holds true for all Elves, not just the Noldor or Sindar, Eldar or Silvan or whatever. I seem to recall a similar statement made by Legolas, but it's too early in the morning to go digging for it. At this point, it seems to me that the Elves are becoming like the Ents, withdrawing to their own realms, defending it, but seldom reaching beyond it to become involved with the concerns of the rest of Middle-earth. Two of the three Elven Rings, each quite powerful, are being used, and while their powers are for preservation, they are not making any attempt to preserve Middle-earth. Nenya is preserving Galadriel's memory of the Undying Lands, in a little corner of the world, and Vilya is involved in preserving Lore, the history and past of what appears to be primarily the Elves. They fight their own fights against Sauron, as does Thranduil in Mirkwood, but with only a few exceptions, they don't really get involved in the biggest picture of the conflict. Legolas is a reflection of this situation, I think. He has lived for so long among the Elves, his reflexes are not to directly aid those of other races. As he fends for himself, he appears to expect them to do the same for themselves. And in this, I find his relationship with Gimli, as well as his concern for abducted Merry and Pippin evidence that he is slowly learning how to be a member of what one might call a "world community" rather than a member of his father's realm, only occasionally interacting with outsiders. To me, he is rather symbolic of most Elves of that era, and an example of what the Elves could have accomplished, but did not. This was no longer their time, and it took prolonged and direct interaction with mortals for him to see the good of coming to their aid. On Caradhras, he was still "stuck in his own head," so to speak. By the time the Company left Lothlorien, he had begun to learn better. He does seem a bit aloof -- and lazy -- in helping the party get down off the mountain, but it was a part of the evolution of the character, his personal growth. He begins as something of an elitist snob, full of casual disdain for "lesser creatures," and by the end, he has learned to value, cherish, and love them for what they are. Which, I think, makes the character more interesting and "real."

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

Even though the description above states that Legolas was wondrously strong, it seems that in the stories, the Elves only use this strength to fight baddies, like Feanor and Fingolfin in the Sil. When does it say that the Elves used their strength in any purely physical, he-man (he-elf?), stone-lifting contest of strength?

Now now, wounding Morgy seven times isn't a feat you can't really dismiss as being not a contest of physical strength.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Well, there were Elven smiths, and that is certainly a craft that needs physical power and stamina.

That it does. And that brings on another question. Did elves sweat?

Originally Posted by Lindale

Now now, wounding Morgy seven times isn't a feat you can't really dismiss as being not a contest of physical strength.

But he was a special elf and it was in thhe days when elves were more connected to the world and not themselves.

[bilbo_baggins]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Now now, wounding Morgy seven times isn't a feat you can't really dismiss as being not a contest of physical strength.

I wouldn't say I necessarily dismiss it as a feat of physical strength, so much as I have always exalted it to a battle of more spiritual proportions. Battling with Melkor is obviously not a purely physical event, since Melkor was a Valar, and was more spirit than creature. I suppose I always assumed that the strength of Fingolfin (it was Fingolfin who fought Morgoth, right? Not some other Elf Lord?) stemmed from his spirit and will in that fight, and not from his body...

But he was a special elf and it was in thhe days when elves were more connected to the world and not themselves.

Were elves more connected to the world, or was the world more in tune with the elvish strengths? When the Third Age ends, it seems to me that it's not a lack of Elvish strength, but a removal of the setting in which they can use that strength. Instead of the Elves getting weaker and less powerful, they are limited in their abilities in the new and changing world...

[mark12_30]

‘If Gandalf would go before us with a bright flame, he might melt a path for you,’ said Legolas. The storm had troubled him little, and he alone of the Company remained still light of heart.

‘If Elves could fly over mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save us,’ answered Gandalf. ‘But I must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow.’

Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. ‘The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf or over snow-an Elf.’

I thihnnk I'll agree with Ibrîniðilpathânezel (gesundheit) on this one. Legolas isn't in personal danger, and he's having a hard time realizing that the rest of them are, and having an even harder time taking it personally. Nobody has died yet, so to speak. What's the worry?

An hour, maybe, went by, though it seemed far longer, and then at last they saw Legolas coming back. At the same time Boromir and Aragorn reappeared round the bend far behind him and came labouring up the slope.

‘Well,’ cried Legolas as he ran up, ‘I have not brought the Sun. She is walking in the blue fields of the South, and a little wreath of snow on this Redhorn hillock troubles her not at all. But I have brought back a gleam of good hope for those who are doomed to go on feet. There is the greatest wind-drift of all just beyond the turn, and there our Strong Men were almost buried. They despaired, until I returned and told them that the drift was little wider than a wall. And on the other side the snow suddenly grows less, while further down it is no more than a white coverlet to cool a hobbit’s toes.’

Still a rather happy-go-lucky attitude. Does he care? It would seem as though he does not. Apparently it is something he will learn.

Shortly thereafter, they have a fight with wolves, and it is a close call; Gandalf's flames carry the day. THen the march through Moria, quibbling with Gimli as he goes. The fight at Balin's tomb ends thus:

Now!’ shouted Gandalf. ‘Now is the last chance. Run for it!’

Aragorn picked up Frodo where he lay by the wall and made for the stair, pushing Merry and Pippin in front of him. The others followed; but Gimli had to be dragged away by Legolas: in spite of the peril he lingered by Balin’s tomb with his head bowed.

Suddenly Legolas gets his fingernails dirty. What motivated him there? Two fights and a long dark march? DId his bickering with the dwarf awaken something brotherly or familial? Why is it that Legolas is the one to drag Gimli away?

Next time Legolas is mentioned:

Legolas turned and set an arrow to the string, though it was a long shot for his small bow. He drew, but his hand fell, and the arrow slipped to the ground. He gave a cry of dismay and fear. Two great trolls appeared; they bore great slabs of stone, and flung them down to serve as gangways over the fire. But it was not the trolls that had filled the Elf with terror.

‘Ai! ai!’ wailed Legolas. ‘A Balrog! A Balrog is come!’

Is this the first time Legolas has truly looked death in the face? Or is this just the first time it has "sunken in?"

After Gandalf fell, Legolas, along with the others, "wept long: some standing and silent, some cast upon the ground."

On the way to Lorien, it is Legolas who notices that Frodo and Sam have fallen behind.

In Lothlorien, Legolas is bubbly with elf-lore, and quibbles with Gimli; after they meet with Galadriel and Celeborn,

Legolas was away much among the Galadhrim, and after the first night he did not sleep with the other companions, though he returned to eat and talk with them. Often he took Gimli with him when he went abroad in the land, and the others wondered at this change.

Now as the companions sat or walked together they spoke of Gandalf, and all that each had known and seen of him came clear before their minds. As they were healed of hurt and weariness of body the grief of their loss grew more keen. Often they heard nearby Elvish voices singing, and knew that they were making songs of lamentation for his fall, for they caught his name among the sweet sad words that they could not understand.

Mithrandir, Mithrandir sang the Elves, O Pilgrim Grey! For so they loved to call him. But if Legolas was with the Company, he would not interpret the songs for them, saying that he had not the skill, and that for him the grief was still too near, a matter for tears and not yet for song.

Quite a change.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

In fact, I've often wondered: did Elves even produce something as filthy as manure? They do eat food (lembas bread for instance), but then again, they are the Eldar, and could such lofty and wondrous creatures actually be associated with excrement?

Well, Mr. Baggins, the answer, as always, is found in the good book:

Originally Posted by LotR; Lothlórien

On the land of Lórien there was no stain.

So unless those flets were hooked up to some good plumbing, the answer is no: much like ladies, Elves produce no excrement.

Originally Posted by Ibrin

He does seem a bit aloof -- and lazy -- in helping the party get down off the mountain, but it was a part of the evolution of the character, his personal growth. He begins as something of an elitist snob, full of casual disdain for "lesser creatures," and by the end, he has learned to value, cherish, and love them for what they are. Which, I think, makes the character more interesting and "real.

I dunno, I think you and Mark are reading a little bit too much into Legolas. I don't think his character changes very much or at all, although he learns a thing or two during the journey. Now, I'm Tolkien's biggest fan (at least I thought so before I came here ) but character development isn't really his forte, is it?

Firstly, I don't think Tolkien meant to convey that Legolas was expressing "casual disdain for lesser creatures" on Caradhras. No, he was just joking around, trying to lighten the mood up. If anything, I believe Tolkien was trying to show how endurable Legolas the Elf was, being completely unaffected by the night in the blizzard despite wearing only light shoes etc.

Secondly, the other instance I mentioned when Leggy won't roll up his sleeves is when Aragorn and Boromir carry the fellowship's boats up to the portage way in Sarn Gebir. This happened after Moria and the fall of Gandalf that you guys mentioned as crucial to his development. By this this time Legolas is also very friendly with Gimli.

I actually think Morthoron is closest to the truth behind his jest. Elves can't be seen doing menial labour because if they do, the spell is broken and the shimmer of elevated beauty and grace that surrounds them is lost.

To return to Mr. Baggins musing: if we picture Galadriel retreating behind a bush with some leaves and a newspaper her aura of magic and mystery quickly dissipates.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

So unless those flets were hooked up to some good plumbing, the answer is no: much like ladies, Elves produce no excrement.

What about Balrogs and Melian, though? Or even the Istari? (though I suppose they must, as they actually have the body of men.)


I must agree with skip spence that if you saw an elf doing manual work (other than smithing, which could be made to look elegant), then they lose their grace. So did elves build houses and flets, or did they get "lesser" beings to do it for them. And furniture too.

And also, I think that elves' strength is more strength within and about themselves, like quick running, high and far jumping (though I'm sure that one of the criteria to be in the fellowship was to be a good jumper), and a lot of strength in fighting. Oh, and mentally.
I just don't think that their strength is expressed in such primitive ways as "lifting stuff up".

[bilbo_baggins]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

What about Balrogs and Melian, though? Or even the Istari? (though I suppose they must, as they actually have the body of men.)


I must agree with skip spence that if you saw an elf doing manual work (other than smithing, which could be made to look elegant), then they lose their grace. So did elves build houses and flets, or did they get "lesser" beings to do it for them. And furniture too.

...

Agreed. The Istari must have had mostly normal functions, although I can't think of an instance where Radagast, Gandalf, or Saruman betray their human weakness.

But I have to ask: what about smithing could ever be elegant? It's long, hard work dealing with some of the hardest, most enduring elements in their world (save dwarven delving). I'm curious to know how smithing could be seen as elegant. Even in the movies, banging on Anduril to reforge it looks like quite a physical achievement.

As for lesser beings making things for the Elves, what about Gondolin? If no one was allowed to depart or enter (save for a very fortunate few), then the furniture and buildings inside must have been built by the Elves themselves. Or else, the Gondolin Elves were rather ascetic and disdained such low and common things as houses and furniture...

Originally Posted by skip spence

To return to Mr. Baggins musing: if we picture Galadriel retreating behind a bush with some leaves and a newspaper her aura of magic and mystery quickly dissipates.

Yes, that would destroy the aura, and I believe that is why JRR neglected to inform us of her "extended-reading" habits, with her copy of "The Lorien Libelous" or "Rivendell Report."

I suppose another theoretical argument for denying Elves the right to partake of such lowly practices would be that the sheer volume produced by a single Elf over their extended lifespan would be phenomenal.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

I suppose another theoretical argument for denying Elves the right to partake of such lowly practices would be that the sheer volume produced by a single Elf over their extended lifespan would be phenomenal.

Maybe that's why they never seem to die of starvation- They always have fertie crops.

But that means that I must ask: Do elves farm?

[Lush]

That it does. And that brings on another question. Did elves sweat?

I am just too much of a lady to tell you.



Seriously, I really like Mark's (Helen's) post up there. It's really, really good. I think Tolkien wanted to illustrate one specific change in Legolas - the development of the friendship with Gimli - and that had to involve a bit less dazzle bravado and a little bit more, hm, genuineness, I guess?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

I suppose another theoretical argument for denying Elves the right to partake of such lowly practices would be that the sheer volume produced by a single Elf over their extended lifespan would be phenomenal.

Well, having looked through some old threads, I can't resist putting this up here.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by J.R.R.Tolkien

....while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land long now steeped in poetry.

One of the most key elements of Tolkien's work, and, sometimes, one of the least appreciated.

[mark12_30]

thread

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, having looked through some old threads, I can't resist putting this up here.

Great find.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally Posted by LotR; Lothlórien
On the land of Lórien there was no stain.

So unless those flets were hooked up to some good plumbing, the answer is no: much like ladies, Elves produce no excrement.

Well, where do you think the fertilizer to make Lorien so
fertile came from? I don't recall Lorien had large quantities
of animals of any kind.

But seriously (sort of) "dim" views of excrement, like sex, seem
more of a limited medievalish worldview then anything else. Why
would enlightened elves see them as more then a natural aspect of
Iluvitar's creation?

[Morthoron]

Perhaps Elves, being so attuned to nature, do not necessarily require making mountains out of dung hills...or crops for that matter. In their ability to 'speak' to flora and fauna (as realized in the awakening in Cuivienen which included teaching Ents to speak), maybe, like ancient fertility gods and godesses (and Yavanna to an even greater extent certainly resembles one of these), they sang for their supper (or rather the grain for making said meal).

P.S. As far as other provender, we know the elves hunted deer, and as everyone knows, deer hunts, at least in England, were more or less the sole province of royalty and punishable by death for poaching on crown land (hence, one of Thranduil's sources of irritation at the dwarves in Mirkwood)

[Faramir Jones]

Morthoron, I don't recall the dwarves being imprisoned for poaching. The ElvenKing said, in response to Balin's question, that it was a crime to wander in his realm without leave. He also mentioned that they stirred up the spiders. Therefore, he was going to keep them in jail until they gave him a reasonable explanation for what they were doing in his kingdom.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Morthoron, I don't recall the dwarves being imprisoned for poaching. The ElvenKing said, in response to Balin's question, that it was a crime to wander in his realm without leave. He also mentioned that they stirred up the spiders. Therefore, he was going to keep them in jail until they gave him a reasonable explanation for what they were doing in his kingdom.

Hmmm...I seem to recall that Thranduil's complaint also included the Dwarves molesting his people (ie., interrupting their festivities), and the Dwarves were also chasing a white deer about the forest (symbolic I know, but evidently under the province of Thranduil). I don't have access to The Hobbit at work (because if I did, nothing would get done), so quote away those who have the time and inclination..

[Faramir Jones]

In terms of what the dwarves were accused of by the ElvenKing, firstly Thorin was asked, 'Why did you and your folk three times try to attack my people at their merrymaking?'

Secondly, after all the other dwarves were captured and Balin demanded to know why they were being detained, the king explained:

'It is a crime to wander in my realm without leave. Do you forget that you were in my kingdom, using the road that my people made? Did you not three times pursue and trouble my people in the forest and rouse the spiders with your riot and clamour?'

He said that after 'all the disturbance' they made, he had a right to know what brought them here.

We appear to have four main sets of allegations against the dwarves:

1. Entering the realm illegally.
2. Assault.
3. Harassment.
4. Causing a disturbance, disorderly conduct, a breach of the peace, or any combination of the three. (I've put them together, because all three overlap.)