Tol-in-Gaurhoth LI: The Pain of Wargs

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The Wargs appeared from their quarters to begin their discussions. They were eager to decide upon the path the Wargs should take, during and after the war. It was clear that the world was to be greatly changed. So to, though, was their traditional council. A trail of blood led from the centre of their hallowed stone circle to the easterly chambers.

At the end of the trail lay Eomer, torn to shreds on the ground. The walls of his room were decorated with scratches, for he had marked his final surroundings with the reflections of his panicked mind. They told of the prophecy he would recite repeatedly. Chilling prose, of which the Elders were familiar with. Some new scraps of information were among the bleak words, indications of special Wargs, with hidden powers: one to see the truth , and one to protect the innocent. But again the pairs, and again the pairs, who would come to bring murder…

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Legate of Amon Lanc
Thinlómien
Kitanna
Kath
Nogrod
Gwathagor
Shastanis Althreduin
SamwiseGamgee
Brinniel
Mithalwen
Diamond
Groin Redbeard
Gollum The Great
Rune Son of Bjarne
Gaunt

Day 1 has begun. Decide who to lynch. There will be no double-lynches. In the event of a tie, the first player to reach the necessary number of votes will be killed.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right. It's late, but this be a first post (maybe...), so I will do it and go to bed.

What do we know. There's 15 of us. Two are some Gifteds, possibly a Seer and maybe either a Ranger or a Hunter-like fella (if not really just simple Ranger or Hunter); and two are awful terrrible trrraitors, wuhurrrahahahrrr... *add Wargish curses*

What does it mean? Absolutely nothing. Which is exactly what these traitors are going to become, wuhurrahahahahrrr... (I started to kinda like that word... if you can call it a word).

What else? Nothing. Let us add some rant. Yada, yada, I haven't played with some people at all, yada, yada, so I don't know what to expect from them, and I will be probably rather careful with judging them until I get some general idea, although now thinking of that, I haven't played for a while, so maybe I will have to refresh my thoughts on everyone, so maybe no one has advantage over the others.

What more, maybe it's actually good. I have been cleaned of prejudices... ...maybe



That would be it from me for now (unless somebody crossposted with me and said something interesting and replyworthy). Good night, and good Day.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

What do we know. There's 15 of us. Two are some Gifteds, possibly a Seer and maybe either a Ranger or a Hunter-like fella (if not really just simple Ranger or Hunter); and two are awful terrrible trrraitors, wuhurrrahahahrrr... *add Wargish curses*

What else? Nothing. Let us add some rant. Yada, yada, I haven't played with some people at all, yada, yada, so I don't know what to expect from them, and I will be probably rather careful with judging them until I get some general idea, although now thinking of that, I haven't played for a while, so maybe I will have to refresh my thoughts on everyone, so maybe no one has advantage over the others.

What more, maybe it's actually good. I have been cleaned of prejudices... ...maybe

Maybe. . . There is plenty of people here I have never experienced in this kind of situation before, but I doubt that I will be rid of prejudices as I have experienced them in other situations and that will most likely have some influence on me.

At least on this, the first day after blood have been spilled!

You pretty much listed the most likely scenarios about the gifted, of course they could have some mystirious powers that we have not heard of, but that would be suprising indeed.

Anyways I shall stick around for a short while before resting.

[Thinlómien]

Yes, the party is most interesting. I'm looking forward to playing with Gollum and Gaunt - it's always interesting to see new faces (or snouts ). And it has probably been years (in plural) since I last played with Samwise, so that's going to be interesting too... and all in all this mix is not maybe the most common of all. Yes, this should be interesting, whatever happens.

[Thinlómien]

I'm here even though it's past midnight and I have school tomorrow. Obvious conclusion: I'm either wolf or gifted if I'm that enthusiatic about this game. (Real conclusion: I have been distracted from going to sleep this far. Obvious interpretation: I have been sending wolf PMs. Real interpretation: I'm easily distracted by MSN and especially certain people... Obvious summary: I must be something special as I'm this weird. Real summary: I'm secretly tried. Ok I'll stop! That was just a bit hypnotic...)

What else? I'm slightly baffled by this setting. So, we have a seer and a ranger, that much is clear. And then we now have two wolves, right? And two more will come after Night3? Hmmm... makes me wonder how it will affect the dynamics of this game... We will have four wolves, which is not nice, and on top of that, we will have less evidence about two of them... not good at all. But on the other hand, if we're extra smart and lucky, we can win this game very easily... A nice challenge, I'd say.


edit: xed with Legate

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I lied. I am posting yet another one. Although I didn't cross-post with anyone, I waited a little. Well, okay, I have not waited... I have been distracted... okay, whatever, let's stop that and post.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

What else? I'm slightly baffled by this setting. So, we have a seer and a ranger, that much is clear. And then we now have two wolves, right? And two more will come after Night3? Hmmm... makes me wonder how it will affect the dynamics of this game... We will have four wolves, which is not nice, and on top of that, we will have less evidence about two of them... not good at all. But on the other hand, if we're extra smart and lucky, we can win this game very easily... A nice challenge, I'd say.

Okay, I am not good in deciphering these prophecy things, I really didn't get it, probably. Now when reading it, it makes sense. Okay, so do you (everyone) think this is how it's going to be? (Now I don't want to start debate about it, I just want confirmation, or some objection or whatever.) Two nassty monstersss now (ah, sorry... wargs don't hiss. I mistook it with something else), and if we don't get them, two more later? Actually it sounds good, even for a balance. (I originally thought we have just two Wolves, sorry, nassty traitor-Wargs, and finito.)

And as for Seer and Ranger, cf. above, if I did not miss something (again, which is well possible with these silly prophecies which no one cannoth readeth, if you get my meaning), it may not be sure whether the second one is a Ranger - in fact, not even whether the first one is a Seer, though this is most probable. But simply, we have one Gifted who can do something already on Night 1 (probably See, then) and another who can't (possibly Ranger, or Hunter).

Ah, okay, but I take it back. "One to protect", really, that sounds like a Ranger most probably. Obviously I "cannoth readeth" even normal stuff.

Edit: x-ed with Rune and Lommy.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

This is stating well. . . I actually overlooked the prophecie, ut must be because of nerves and eagernes to get things rolling.

Anyways a thanks to Lommy for putting forth her intepritation of it, I my self find it a bit confusing, but my brain works in mystirious ways.

[Gollum the Great]

I don't like the look of things.

*Gollum looks at the remains and grit his teeth, the blood's scent reminding him of not yet having breakfast*

The story has me mystified. That thing about "But again the pairs, and again in pairs", is just plain queer. Perhaps Eomer went off his onion, wrote all these messages out, slashed himself to bits and decided it would make a good mystery story. But I forgot, we're the Elders, and are supposed to be serious. My bad.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

It's the blooooooooood! That's what draws them near, I swear it! On night 3, there will be so much blood that it will draw the traitors here!

Sorry, wanted to rhyme. Anywhoo, present.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Well, of course, this is all a little random at the moment, but at the risk of becoming prominent I'll get the first post up before I head off to bed.
I think that our dearly departed Eomer's words are fairly clear as regards those gifted Wargs in our midst: one to see the truth and one to protect the innocent. In those councils of the lesser peoples of this Middle Earth they are known as the seer and the ranger.
As regards those pernicious, traiterous beasts in our midst who are not fit to be called Wargs my mind is troubled, though. Listen carefully to those dying words of dear Eomer: 'But again the pairs, and again the pairs'. Are there any others among us who are concerned we may be battling against six fell enemies. Surely the first again would indicate there had already been an initial evil pair?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

if we're extra smart and lucky, we can win this game very easily...

Ha ha.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Two nassty monstersss now (ah, sorry... wargs don't hiss. I mistook it with something else), and if we don't get them, two more later? Actually it sounds good, even for a balance.
[...]
And as for Seer and Ranger, cf. above, if I did not miss something

Yeah, that's how I understand it.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

He was almost giddy as the night crept nearer. In pairs they come! he would repeat. Two to spill blood on the sacred ground! They bring terror and death. One night, a second and yea! a third, of this I know. But what follows! Two will follow, after the third night, great enemies! Their war beats and tramples us, and brings about that dread circumstance: the pain of Wargs is here. Two amoral forces, to subvert all others. The twain will come, at the behest of their following master, and his foe is at their heels. The pain of Wargs is the only certainty.

Originally Posted by SamwiseGamgee

Listen carefully to those dying words of dear Eomer: 'But again the pairs, and again the pairs'. Are there any others among us who are concerned we may be battling against six fell enemies. Surely the first again would indicate there had already been an initial evil pair?

Actually, now that I look at it again, I think you may be right, SamGam: two traitors each night for three nights - and then the prophecy seems to indicate that something crazy happens, but I can't tell what exactly. After the prophecy has already discussed the six traitors over three days, it says that: "Two will follow, great enemies, after the third night, great enemies!" This is something different, as these two new figures follow the regular traitors and are apparently enemies. Might they be something along the lines of the wizards of Dueling Wizard fame/igominy? Or something else? Any ideas? I'm also curious what the prophecy means when it says (just following this), "The twain will come at the behest of their following master, and his foe is at their heels." If "twain" refers to the earlier pairs of traitors, then the meaning is relatively clear, as the "master" and the "foe" are apparently the two great enemies of the previous lines. But, if "twain" refers, rather, to those two enemies, then we have something entirely weird on our hands. What exactly, I couldn't begin to say. I'm inclined to think the first interpretation more likely. Occam's razor, you know.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, having nothing to do, I made a reflection of the horrible (interpretate in whichever sense suits you) prophecy.

Interpretation follows:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

He was almost giddy as the night crept nearer. In pairs they come! he would repeat. Two to spill blood on the sacred ground! They bring terror and death.

Two traitors in the beginning.

One night, a second and yea! a third, of this I know. But what follows! Two will follow, after the third night, great enemies!

First and second night normal course of action, after third night, two more traitors appear...

Their war beats and tramples us, and brings about that dread circumstance: the pain of Wargs is here. Two amoral forces, to subvert all others. The twain will come,

...who seem to belong to a different team. I.e. two Wolf teams who "battle each other". Makes good sense for balance. (Four, yet also of course may go against each other...)

at the behest of their following master, and his foe is at their heels. The pain of Wargs is the only certainty.

Now only this is very cryptic part. I don't know about you, but what I think of is a "master" on the side of the baddies (both?), and a "Hunter", or what? Master=Cobbler, as it was sometimes? Or will he join both the teams? Or something totally different? And WHEN? Or is it just some poetic babbling?

The first seems okay: two wolves now, two teams after Night 3. Or so I would read it. That would be reasonable for the game setting. The end is baffling. I say we don't bother, unless somebody has a good interpretation for it.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

But again the pairs, and again the pairs, who would come to bring murder…

This is also kind of weird. But I thought the "again" is supposed to stand against the former text, which wrote about the Gifteds, so it means no more than "there are two who will help you, but again (sic), there are the pairs (2+2 wolves)... Hmm... now seeing it, the second "again the pairs", unless it's poetic repetition, is really weird.

Okay, anyway, I wanted to clear this up also for myself. The two wolf teams seem probable. Do you think... do you actually think, I now got an idea, that the wolves wouldn't actually kill at all, but "mutate" the others to wolves too? That could make understandable the "pairs and again pairs" forming... I know, it's quite overstretching it, but I'm merely thinking aloud... although "blood spilled" would speak for kills... or then it could be to lynches... or, when a wolf targets a wolf to kill, only THEN the wolf will be killed... okay, nonsense. That'd be too much, and Eomer would've told us if it were to be THAT complicated. (Well, he may still do so in the Evening.) But I was merely thinking.

EDIT: Hm, this makes weird italics up there, but no idea how this can be fixed. Just ignore it then.

Anyway, I am probably going to let this for you here to chew now... and be back later. Where are all these Groins, Nogrods, Gaunts and all?

[Kitanna]

So, most of what is being discussed is Eomer's "pairs and pairs" prophecy and how we should take it. Since that is the main topic of discussion it's hard to form opinions on anyway. Lommy appears to be the only one who has put forth any sort of accusation and she points her finger at everyone so not a whole lot to go off of there.

Legate is being quite helpful in helping us decipher this riddle left, but we can ponder all day about the pairs Eomer is talking about and not really accomplish anything.

Legate: Sort of innocent, helpful, bordering on too helpful, but he may actually be the one who cracks the prophecy and gets it right, which good or evil could quite possibly benefit us later.
Lommy: Sort of innocent, stirred away from the prophecy ideas and contributed something that could provide decent fodder for later.
SamGam, Gwath, and Gollum: Not so innocent, but not so guilty either. After Legate's first long post of picking apart the pairs hint left by Eomer these three took up the same cause to analyze it. Sometimes the restating of ideas like this is because people want to see it in their own words or they're hiding something by jumping on an innocent idea that will make them look helpful.

That's all I have for now. I'll be back in a few hours.

[Nogrod]

How come you Lommy think this would be a relatively basic game as Eomer says it himself quite clearly in the TIG-thread:

Originally Posted by Eomer in #4081

I think I mentioned before that the game would be simple. I've actually changed my mind and want to do something a little bit creative. But it's all very secretive.

Originally Posted by Eomer in #4084

Ok, so this game will be a little bit experimental. I, of course, hope it goes swimmingly, but I will beg your forgiveness if it goes wrong. Here's hoping all's well, eh?

So some fancy stuff ahead of us it seems.

BUt Ill promise that's my part of this speculation toDay. I'll go back and try to see if I can say anything more constructive at this point.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

How come you Lommy think this would be a relatively basic game as Eomer says it himself quite clearly in the TIG-thread:


So some fancy stuff ahead of us it seems.

BUt Ill promise that's my part of this speculation toDay. I'll go back and try to see if I can say anything more constructive at this point.

Did Eomer not state that it would be a relatively simple game before he says these other things, let me answer that my self: Yes he did.

So it seem quite clear that either she is trying to trick us or she simply remembered it wrong and I do not see much point in trying to trick us at this point, as all is mass confusion anyway.

[Nogrod]

Some thoughts thus far.

Lommy’s first post is just weird… and Legate's first ones look a bit puzzling as well (it was late for both of them to be sure).

Samwise raises my eyebrow with this beginning reservation:

Well, of course, this is all a little random at the moment, but at the risk of becoming prominent I'll get the first post up before I head off to bed.

After which he only mildly speculated about the gifted roles and the number of baddies to come. It looks very much like over-reacting or pre-empting to me.

Shasta’s and Kit’s first posts mainly state their presence. Kind of posts that always make me a bit worried

Lommy’s suspect-list is a bit weird as well. It’s not Lommyish. Like her first post is not. Now this is not saying she’s a wolf as she might be just trying a different mode of play for she could pull it very considerately were she a wolf. What I’m a bit concerned is just a tone I’m getting from her posting which isn’t exactly sincere. But that’s not something I would be ready to vote for her today: it’s too vague and feeling-based.

I’m a bit puzzled over Kitanna’s last post. Her choices of people she points out and what she says of them is interesting. It’s clear that Lommy and Legate have posted the most and then it’s also understandable to pick them. But it’s interesting she ends up stressing that Legate might be the one to crack the riddles in the end (when almost everyone posted had engaged themselves in a way or another to cracking the prophecies) but that Lommy’s host of talk might “provide decent fodder for later”… ?

Then she puts together SamGam, Gwath, and Gollum and says they are only repeating Legate’s points – which in the end I think is not even true. Looking for easy lynches?

It's very much open to me at this point of the Day. If I'd need to vote now it might be Samvais or Kit but hopefully there is more to read when I come back later - it's just too much second guessing right now.

Look innocentish at this moment: Gwath, Brinn.

EDIT: X'd with Kitanna

[Kitanna]

My first class was canceled so I'll be around for a while yet.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I’m a bit puzzled over Kitanna’s last post. Her choices of people she points out and what she says of them is interesting. It’s clear that Lommy and Legate have posted the most and then it’s also understandable to pick them. But it’s interesting she ends up stressing that Legate might be the one to crack the riddles in the end (when almost everyone posted had engaged themselves in a way or another to cracking the prophecies) but that Lommy’s host of talk might “provide decent fodder for later”… ?

By fodder for later I meant depending on how toDay and Night goes it may leave us with some sort of clue in the Days to come or it could well mean absolutely nothing later. And as for Legate he's dedicated the most time to trying to figure things out, that's all that meant. It doesn't mean he'll figure out what Eomer meant or that anyone will for that matter.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

SamGam, Gwath, and Gollum: Not so innocent, but not so guilty either. After Legate's first long post of picking apart the pairs hint left by Eomer these three took up the same cause to analyze it. Sometimes the restating of ideas like this [...].

I was not just "restating." I am insulted that you failed to appreciate my new and original ideas.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I was not just "restating." I am insulted that you failed to appreciate my new and original ideas.

Regardless of the fact if you are being new and original, you and others are muddying the waters by debating something that doesn't get us any closer to catching the bad guys. I stand by what I said, but it wasn't meant to offend.

Originally Posted by Rune

So it seem quite clear that either she is trying to trick us or she simply remembered it wrong and I do not see much point in trying to trick us at this point, as all is mass confusion anyway.

When you say "she" are you referring to Lommy or someone else? If you are talking about Lommy can you explain how she might be trying to trick us?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

When you say "she" are you referring to Lommy or someone else? If you are talking about Lommy can you explain how she might be trying to trick us?

Of course I am talking about Lommy, but I think you are misunderstanding me.

Basicly I thought Nogrod's question to Lommy was a bit unnecisary, as seemed clear to me that Lommy had remembered the part where Eomer said it would be an ordinary game and forgotten that he retracted that later on.

I then state that the only other possible explenation is in my view that Lommy was trying to misguide us. . . but I do not belive that is the case! (She would gain so little for that)

So I was actually questioning Nogrod rather than Lommy. . . Does that make sense?

[Mithalwen]

Sorry if it duplicates, but time is short for me today.

The game will last at least 3 nights so if we get the extant Warg-enemies we win ... however there will be a rival pair of Warg-enemies after that. So that presumably will mean 2 kills per night but the possibility of them taking each other out.

If this is correct I suspect that the second pair are aware of their destiny and are cobbling. Lommie seems so cobblerish there has to be an explanation.

I have to vote early tonight - familystuff.

[Nogrod]

A half-constructive point for starters...

There has been a lot of discussion about the possible set-up of this game and what the prophecies mean. And as Lommy and some others have mentioned it's okay to discuss them when one has nothing else to go on with. Sometimes these discussions may be even revealing if the wolves know the situation and have an interest to make pepole think about the rules in a certain way, but looking at the hints given to us and Eomer's talk about an experimental game it would look to me the wolves are no more cognizant of the situation we are or that they would have any clear interest in certain interpretations at this moment (in the end we "know" there are two wolves toDay).

So I'm afraid we can't read too much from those interpretations of the rules / setting of the game which kind of makes all the "rules-talk" a little less productive one might hope for.

But happily there are other things to read - and there might be things in between the lines of some of the "rule-talk" as well.