Potatoes

[Lindale]

Having read the bit of CoH with Mim and his sack of roots this dinnertime I thought... the roots he was gathering were... potatoes. Any thoughts?

But when they were washed the roots proved to be white and fleshy with their skins, and when boiled were good to eat, somewhat like bread; and the outlaws were glad of them . . . 'Wild Elves know them not; Grey Elves have not found them; the proud ones from over the Sea are too proud to delve . . . . we do not teach Men how to find them, for Men are greedy and thriftless, and would not spare till all the plants had perished.'

But when you boil potatoes, it's not exactly like bread, is it? Unless you overcook it. Boiling is the only way mentioned in CoH of cooking those roots; probably during the zenith of Amon Rudh they had other ways of cooking/preparing it.

This was the First Age; probably during the Third Age, where we have Sam wishing for "good taters" to stick in his stew, potato cultivation has been around for quite a long time.

I've tried Googling "potatoes Mim Turin" and nothing significant I have found.

Oh and forgive this thread that is probably brought about by working in the dead of night with a tummy full of potatoes.

[Aganzir]

Well I don't know. Potatoes aren't the only edible roots there are, and while they certainly were cultivated in the Middle-Earth of the Third Age, I don't how easy it would have been to find wild potatoes so far in the north on the First Age. According to Wikipedia, at least one wild potato species is found as far north as Texas, and I bet the climate of Beleriand was colder than that of Texas.

I'd imagine they were probably more like swedes or turnips (which grow wild also in the north), or just some random roots which have no name (that I'd know of). Also, there are many types of breads, and eg. swedes taste a bit like a certain kind of sweet rye bread, so it's hard to figure how the roots actually tasted. Hunter-gatherers have always fed on roots, and hunting and gathering is mostly the way also Mîm & co got their food, so no wonder if they knew things the elves &c. didn't.

[skip spence]

Why not? Considering how important potatoes became for the peoples of Northern Europe it's entirely possible this is a reference to the 'taters Sam loved so much several millennia later. But well, potatoes are not really white or fleshy I guess, nor do they taste like bread. Hm. Maybe not after all.

[Laurinquë]

I think it rather humorous that Arda has things like "taters", seeing as how they came from the New World, as did Tobacco. LotR, Silmarillion, etc. are supposed to be a sort of pre-history of Europe no? Long before all these New World plants could have gotten there.

Just a comment.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Laurinquë

I think it rather humorous that Arda has things like "taters", seeing as how they came from the New World, as did Tobacco. LotR, Silmarillion, etc. are supposed to be a sort of pre-history of Europe no? Long before all these New World plants could have gotten there.

Just a comment.

During the First Age however I am willing to bet they didn't have tobacco or pipe-weed of sorts. The First Age I can most easily equate with Old Europe... with the Third Age as the colonial power Europe. That's how I've read it after taking a post-colonial class. And yes, going back to taters, I think it kinda fits.

[The Might]

Potatoes are in my opinion and good and at least plausible explanation and it would make sense there were taters in Beleriand.

Talking about climate I took a look at this wonderful book that is The Atlas of M-e by Mrs Fonstad and it appears that in her opinion the region where the outlaws lived, as anyways pretty much all of southern and central Beleriand was a region where west winds blew, much like todays Europe and thinks that a type of Gulf current-like oceanic current brought warmth to Beleriand. This results in mild summers and mild winters and in England, North Central Europe and West Oregon (examples given by Mrs Fonstad).

Now, given these circumstances I don't see any problem why the roots could not have been potatoes.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

Mim's roots, thats an interesting one. I have heard of somthing called a breadfruit, though I believe its tropical so not too likely in Beleriand, and of course a fruit not a root. I guess potatoes can be 'floury' sometimes, but the usual view is that potatoes tomatoes tobacco etc were imported into Middle Earth from The West via Numenor. They could be swedes, turnips etc, or even some species which was unique to Beleriand and died with it.

Anyway I was reminded of the old coffee thread, see here...

coffee thread

[Lalwendë]

If the taters came up when cooked like bread then they were probably King Edwards. The UK's finest floury spud for making big chunky chips, mash, and you can also knock up tater cakes from them - using cold mash and a bit of flour, just mix into a 'dough', roll out and cut into rounds and dry fry them til browned and serve with a big knob of butter. Drrrrrrooooooool.

Aren't chapatis also made from tater flour?

Plus spuds will grow in all kinds of climates. Some of the best are harvested up in Scotland, and of course it's the staple Irish food and the climate there certainly isn't balmy.

Anyway, all this wondering about why they had taters when America hadn't been discovered is a bit of a red herring because it was Arda. It didn't have an America in it, nor a Europe; it was a fantasy world so there's no problem with them having taters, tobacco, tomatoes and coffee in Middle-earth.

I'm not surprised Elves didn't know about taters though. They probably existed on that vile no-carbs Atkins diet, looking at how skinny they were (I wonder if they also had the bad breath?).

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I'm not surprised Elves didn't know about taters though. They probably existed on that vile no-carbs Atkins diet, looking at how skinny they were (I wonder if they also had the bad breath?).

Come to think of it, what exactly do Elves eat? We can all see that hobbits eat veggies etc that we are familiar with, taters and strawberries with cream. What about Elves?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Come to think of it, what exactly do Elves eat? We can all see that hobbits eat veggies etc that we are familiar with, taters and strawberries with cream. What about Elves?

Well, at least Gildor's company ate fruit and white bread.

[Lindale]

No, I mean, how did they prepare them? And besides, Gildor's company was travelling, they couldn't prepare food as well as if they were just at home.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

If the taters came up when cooked like bread then they were probably King Edwards. The UK's finest floury spud for making big chunky chips, mash, and you can also knock up tater cakes from them - using cold mash and a bit of flour, just mix into a 'dough', roll out and cut into rounds and dry fry them til browned and serve with a big knob of butter. Drrrrrrooooooool.

Aren't chapatis also made from tater flour?

I'm not surprised Elves didn't know about taters though. They probably existed on that vile no-carbs Atkins diet, looking at how skinny they were (I wonder if they also had the bad breath?).

Are you suggesting that tater cakes could form the staple ingredient in lembas? Or are tater cakes best eaten when hot off the griddle? Or would it just be tater flour in lembas?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Come to think of it, what exactly do Elves eat? We can all see that hobbits eat veggies etc that we are familiar with, taters and strawberries with cream. What about Elves?

Well, thanks to the Hobbit, we know they drink wine (at least wood elves do, and it is not unreasonable to assume that Elrond's and Galadriel's elves do as well), as for food, that's a little more ambiguous. Lots of fruit and nuts (in thier seasons) seems to fit with the elves being "closer" to nature than either men or hobbits, and bound in the music. I've always imagined there being a lot of venison as well, but my mind is proably clouded by innumerable images of the "fairy hunt". With thier light silent step and handyness with the bow, elves are however probably incredible hunters and put that skill to use frequently. In fact There is probably little difference in diet between elf and man of comparable means (I say this only beccause there doesn't seem to be an elf pesantry or serf class) except that leves proably relied more on game than domestic animals and probably did not eat as much "processed" food (for the purposes of this argument things pickled, smoked, cured, etc.) (Oh great, now I've got an image of boar and venison smoked over mallorn wood)

On the subject that strated this thread, potatoes are certainly a possiblity, though by no means the only one. If you take the argument that "Middle Earth isn't our earth; any plant could have come from anywhere". The number of plants with edible tubers and or roots that are starch becomes frightening, especailly if the other arguments used by some on this thread is considered valid (that Ist age beleriand had a fairly mild climate). If you dont like the "floury potatoes" idea how about something from the genus Discorea (the true yams) there are a lot of kinds most are floury or bread like and some grow quite large. (I seem to recally something about the roots being fist sized or larger), plus a lot grow in poor soil conditions whis the area around the bald hill might qualify as. other (admittedly less likey possibilites) include sweet potato (would have to be a white variety) oca (a bit too waxy and most of the ones I've seen have been pink, not white) "fairy spuds" (a kind of claytonia found in the eastern US (tastes like chesnuts, but we dont know what kind of bread Turin and Co were used to, and chesnut flour is pretty common in some parts of Europe) or a gigantic form of chufa groundnut (Cyperus esculus I think, it's a kind of sedge). There is even a subspecies of domestic vetch found in parts of France, (Vicia sativa var. subterrenea) that produces edible tubers. One second (checks online references) No wait, never mind that doesn't produce tubers it produces cleistomagous flowers that make subterrenian seeds, (like a peanut), sorry about that.)

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Are you suggesting that tater cakes could form the staple ingredient in lembas? Or are tater cakes best eaten when hot off the griddle? Or would it just be tater flour in lembas?

Oh yes, with bacon and eggs. Mmmmmmmm........Though my nan used to make them for Monday night tea - with a big pan sized one for Grandad. Dinner would have been 'resurrection' i.e. Sunday's leftovers warmed up, and then she saved the leftover taters for the tea.

There might be taters in the Lembas, but I always think of it as a bit like Ship Biscuit but nicer and with less maggots and weevils.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

There might be taters in the Lembas, but I always think of it as a bit like Ship Biscuit but nicer and with less maggots and weevils.

Or perhaps they indeed kept the remains of the vermin in the lembas as a protein source, but always chose a smaller rather than a larger one (so as not to be conspicuous) -- the lesser of two weevils, as it were.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

There might be taters in the Lembas, but I always think of it as a bit like Ship Biscuit but nicer and with less maggots and weevils.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Or perhaps they indeed kept the remains of the vermin in the lembas as a protein source, but always chose a smaller rather than a larger one (so as not to be conspicuous) -- the lesser of two weevils, as it were.

Actually, that sounds more like cram to me, the vermin providing the chewier substance, since Tokien says somewhere that cram is chewy.

I would also think that the elves' miruvor would decompose, dissolve or otherwise cancel out any vermin--assuming that miruvor and lembas were taken together--and would thereby diminish any nutritional value. So there wouldn't be any point in including either a lesser or a greater of two weevils if one was going to imbibe miruvor with them.

But then I've always thought of lembas as similar to Yorkshire oatcakes.

[Selmo]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I've always thought of lembas as similar to Yorkshire oatcakes.

Elves from the North might eat Yorkshire oatcakes but more discerning Elves from a little further South would, of course, consume large quantities of Staffordshire oatcacks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/stoke/local_her...e_recipe.shtml


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[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Or perhaps they indeed kept the remains of the vermin in the lembas as a protein source, but always chose a smaller rather than a larger one (so as not to be conspicuous) -- the lesser of two weevils, as it were.

Who's been watching Master And Commander?

Originally Posted by Bethberry

But then I've always thought of lembas as similar to Yorkshire oatcakes.

Yorkshire Oatcakes? (Imagine that said in the tone of Peter Kay when he says "Garlic bread?")

I've never heard of such a thing! There are Staffordshire oatcakes, which are lush (I had some for second breakfast in fact!). And there are breadcakes in Yorkshire - buns or barms to everyone else. But I've never heard of a Yorskhire Oatcake? Maybe this is some sinister secret foodstuff not available to 'foreigners' like me. I shall have to ask davem the professional Tyke....

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Who's been watching Master And Commander?

It was the only memorable line in the whole movie!

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Yorkshire Oatcakes? (Imagine that said in the tone of Peter Kay when he says "Garlic bread?")

I've never heard of such a thing! There are Staffordshire oatcakes, which are lush (I had some for second breakfast in fact!). And there are breadcakes in Yorkshire - buns or barms to everyone else. But I've never heard of a Yorskhire Oatcake? Maybe this is some sinister secret foodstuff not available to 'foreigners' like me. I shall have to ask davem the professional Tyke....

Well, I don't know about Yorskhire Oatcake, but I think you'll find Yorkshire oatcakes discussed in a Victorian novel that is quite particular about Yorkshire habits, set in the West Riding at the time of the Luddites. They could, of course, be one of those local delicacies which have not made it into our cosmopolitan modern tastes, part of the disappearing features of the English countryside whose loss Tolkien so much deplored.

Originally Posted by Chapter 26, Shirley

'And will you have lunch with us?' here interposed Shirley, addressing Moore, and desirous, as it seemed, to turn the conversation.

'Certainly, if I may.'

'You will be restricted to new milk and Yorkshire oat-cake.'

'Va - pour le lait frais!' said Louis. 'But for your oat-cake!' - and he made a grimace.

'He cannot eat it,' said Henry: 'he thinks it is like bran, raised with sour yeast.'

'Come, then, by special dispensation, we will allow him a few cracknels; but nothing less homely.'

They are, or were, if the novel has it right in this passage, toasted on a fork over a fire. This Louis Moore is the French tutor and so comes equipped with French notions of cuisine, it seems.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Selmo

Elves from the North might eat Yorkshire oatcakes but more discerning Elves from a little further South would, of course, consume large quantities of Staffordshire oatcacks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/stoke/local_her...e_recipe.shtml


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Fah for oatmeal adulterated by plain flour, sugar and milk!

Perhaps Tolkien himself considered the divisions of the elves as originating in their culinary differences and preferences. I would be inclined, however, to think that the more southern elves would likely display the unfortunate consequences of consuming the oatcake with the larger amount of sugar. It was perhaps these elves who would leave traces of their footprints in the snow where the northern elves would demonstrate that fabled lightness of slender elves.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Perhaps Tolkien himself considered the divisions of the elves as originating in their culinary differences and preferences. I would be inclined, however, to think that the more southern elves would likely display the unfortunate consequences of consuming the oatcake with the larger amount of sugar. It was perhaps these elves who would leave traces of their footprints in the snow where the northern elves would demonstrate that fabled lightness of slender elves.

Hmmm... then I suppose you advocate the Keeblerian Theory which surmises that Southern Elves became industrious bakers after they diminished, whilst the Northern Elves, with their Noldorin penchant for crafting, drifted to the polar regions, became disciples of Tom Bombadil (who by now was very white bearded and stout), and continued their creative traditions.

[Lalwendë]

Well Bb, you know, I think I recall one of these sorts of 'oatcakes' back in the mists of my memory. They were the sort of dry, vile thing that your gran might bring back from a day out in Harrogate (as if to underline how thankful you ought to be for being Lancastrian and only ever having to tackle such things as black pudding ).

They aren't any day-to-day part of the Tyke diet however, unlike the superior Staffordshire oatcake, which is eaten by natives of the county daily (and also by me when I can get them).

However, going back to po-ta-toes, I still rather like the idea that Lembas was basically potato cakes.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm... then I suppose you advocate the Keeblerian Theory which surmises that Southern Elves became industrious bakers after they diminished, whilst the Northern Elves, with their Noldorin penchant for crafting, drifted to the polar regions, became disciples of Tom Bombadil (who by now was very white bearded and stout), and continued their creative traditions.

Actually, if I am not mistaken, the Keeblerian Theory has come to be seen as something of an anachronism, with much fandom discourse loudly clammering over the Emperor Palinate Doctrine which claims that the Noldorian Elves were doomed when they looked over their right shoulder and saw the Great Enemy from their Northern Wastes of Alaskabad. Fearing to fall prey to the Evil Eye, they forsook the Southern Brotherhood, who had championed bread over circuses, and attempted to suspend the First Age.

What is more plausible from my limited view of matters is that Tom Bombadil has quite likely invested a large share of his worldview in these matters.

What this has to do with the price of potatoes in lembas I'm not sure but I hear that panic may be ensuing in the fandom for fear that lembas will no longer be consumed by any elves.

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Hi all,

Mim's roots, thats an interesting one. I have heard of somthing called a breadfruit, though I believe its tropical so not too likely in Beleriand, and of course a fruit not a root.

Begging your pardon, breadfruit, (we call it langka here, and it's a personal favorite of mine), it's not like bread at all. It's the farthest thing from bread, for one if it's ripe it's yellowish and soft, if not you have to cook it (usually with coconut milk and ginger) and it results in something soft and chewy--maybe I can compare it to mung bean sprouts when overcooked--and not really bread-ish.

Though guys, being a nativist-when-it-comes-to-food type of person, who has no great liking of stepping foot in non-Filipino or Chinese pr Japanese restaurants, I have no idea of what an oatcake tastes like.