Ooh la la, Lúthien...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't hate her for being beautiful I hate the fact that it is the sole criterion.

Maybe that's just shorthand for the beauty of her soul and for the deeds and hope that sprung from her hands.

That Luthien is placed highest for her beauty where as those who were wise and resourceful and served their people as well as being beautiful are sidelined.

Maybe Tolkien was just being a realist. Thinking about school alumni this weekend, the reason why our school reunions are so disorganized, ill-conceived and planned, and therefore mostly unattended is that, back in the day when hormones ruled our brains, we elected our male and female class officers due to looks/charisma and not necessarily because they would make for good leaders.

Has anyone else noticed this happening? Surely, come this November in 'Merica, most voters will vote for a candidate only after a careful examination of all candidates' positions, strengths, skills, deeds and psychological evalutaions.

And dying for love is so irritatingly adolescent.

Not sure what you mean, and when I first read this, I thought that you had written irrationally adolescent, which I thought was an oxymoron, and note that that is only apparent when one is not either.

[Mithalwen]

And may be it was short-hand for a complete absence of character ....


Thinking back to a fascinating lecture David Doughan gave at Oxonmoot 06 about how Tolkien's attitude to women changed as he aged, I think Luthien was too much a product of his earlier attitude. Having heard reports of Priscilla being (unsuprisingly) formidable intellectually, I can't help speculating if being the father of a clever and strongminded daughter forced him to alter his opinions.

Oh that Romeo and Juliet stuff ... silly way to carry on Beren is no Kester Woodseaves - he really was "a man to die for".

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

And may be it was short-hand for a complete absence of character ....

Do I hear a poll forming somewhere on the Downs?

about how Tolkien's attitude to women changed as he aged, I think Luthien was too much a product of his earlier attitude.

Speaking from the male side and from experience, if one's attitudes regarding the 'fairer half' don't change over time, one might want to examine one's toes to see if there be a little expiration tag attached.

Oh that Romeo and Juliet stuff ... silly way to carry on Beren is no Kester Woodseaves - he really was "a man to die for".

What adolescent didn't want to die for a love, at least once? I too may have been once benighted...

And, seeing my wife's mother lose her husband of nearly fifty years, she too has wanted to die, if only to be with him, to be by his side once more, and she is well beyond the years of adolescence, may mean that later years only change the forms, but not the intensity, of the expression.

[Mithalwen]

Oh it makes so much more sense after 50 years... though your Mother in Law was truly blessed - my Great -grandmother apparently used to say that she shouldn't mind a few years a widow..... and didn't get them. But it is rather overdramatic and unnecessary - considering the duration of most relationships taking a single sleeping tablet should suffice....

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But it is rather overdramatic and unnecessary - considering the duration of most relationships taking a single sleeping tablet should suffice....

But you must walk yourself back to those years, when so much that now seems silly was SO important. What's truly sad is when one so young is successful in taking the short bridge, not realizing that much of what seems 'to die for' will be forgotten in just a few years.

On the other hand, can we truly say that Luthien ever acted immaturely? She took down Morgoth, gave her father and company the slip, and brought back the Man and the Silmaril, and so she was much more than just a pretty face.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

But you must walk yourself back to those years, when so much that now seems silly was SO important. What's truly sad is when one so young is successful in taking the short bridge, not realizing that much of what seems 'to die for' will be forgotten in just a few years.

Which is exactly my point. Should have got over that drip Beren .... And I don't see what is so clever about giving Thingol the slip. Any girl worth her salt handles Daddy far better. Idril managed even to get Daddy's blessing for her mortal beau without all those ridiculous shenanigans. Luthien is entirely self obsessed and motivated only by self interest - that is very adolescent.

[Lalaith]

Idril managed even to get Daddy's blessing for her mortal beau without all those ridiculous shenanigans

well, yes, because it suited Tolkien's plotlines for Gondolin/Tuor better. I don't think it was due to any intrinsic difference between the characters...
Plus...wasn't Idril an even earlier character in the mythology than even Luthien? (I may be wrong on this)

We'll just have to agree to differ on this one Mith.

Rune's idea about feminism is quite interesting.

women have done great deeds, but that does not make you a feminist

As is Mith's point about Priscilla.
Eowyn (written I think to please Priscilla - where did I read that?) was aware of the constraints facing women and rebelled against them. Neither she, nor probably her creator, had ever heard of the concept of feminism. Does that make her, nonetheless, a feminist figure? I think so. Rune, and others, may not.

Which reminds me.
"I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman; but I have the stomach of a concrete elephant. First I'm going to have a little drinkie, and then I'm going to execute the whole bally lot of you."