Mordor inspired by Nazi Germany?

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

And as for FDR and Eomer both were trying to push their countries toward war for the security of their lands.

I wouldn't go that far, FDR was cautious to keep America out of the war because the Americans wanted to stay out of it. Most likely America would have stayed out of the war in Europe entirely if it wasn't for Hitler declaring war on us.

I am entirely convinced that Tolkien meant what he said with not being inspired by events of WWII for the The Lord of the Rings, indeed I think that you could draw comparisons between any two things if you put your mind to it. It is neat to look at SOME of the similarities between the two. Gandalf for example would probably be the Winston Churchill of Middle Earth: desperately trying to wake people up to the danger that is coming and eventually succeeding.

That was a nice point that you made, Kitanna, in post four.

[Bêthberry]

Whoops, let's not get into personal attacks here; let's just look at the ideas.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

If I may be permitted to take up Burrahobbit's mantle...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Me.

A clever acknowledgement of burrahobbit's clever and witty eloquence, Formendacil. I will go, however, for something less succinct.

Gondor can be seen as the British. Gondor fought long and hard against Mordor often times holding it alone, much like Great Britain did after the defeat of France and while Russia and the US were trying to steer clear of trouble.

Well, let's take this further to see what legs it can stand on. Who in Gondor would play Chamberlain's role of appeasement? What to do about that awkward bit about the king with Nazi sympathies who abdicated? Would that be Boromir, whose actions actually could have led to defeat? Who else would be the Mordor/Nazi sympathisers who were not uncommon in Britain before the war? Who would play Churchill's role of defiant conservative? Faramir? And what about those former colonies who came to the aid of Great Britain, as the little island didn't exactly stand alone--one of which was "rewarded" for its support and participation by having a beach all of its own to attack, Juno Beach, on D-Day.

And how would mad Denthor fit into the British situation of the time? Or would that be the king who abdicated rather than give up the woman he loved? Denethor's descent into depression, despair and madness began with his wife's death. Is there something here about men who care too much for their women? No, not really.

It is really important to look specifically at what Tolkien said about how a true comparison to WWII would look--it is not a very flattering portrayal of the Allies at all.

It would also be very easy to make comparisons between Mordor and Stalinist/communist Russia--both perpetrated unspeakable horrors on people who lived within their territories and both maintained prison camps for people and both persued networks of spies against their own citizens. Generalities can be compared easily but details are what makes a comparison really sustainable. jmho

[Rumil]

Hi all,

I find myself in good agreement with Bethberry's points (especially the first ). Where is the renowned Burra these days anyway?

Who indeed gets to be Stalin? These sort of major details do not match up well between LoTR and WWII. The overall sort of thing - defeat of an aggressive 'evil empire' does, but not if you dig much deeper.

I think that there must be an argument, however, for Tolkien's writing process being affected by current affairs. The jouney started in 1936, and many have commented oh the lighter, 'fairie' feel of the first chapters, if I remember 'It feels diferent near the Shire' was one such thread. By 1940, however, the story is getting darker, and 'greater' if you know what I mean. Certainly I think that living through the most terrible and dramatic events of the 20th century, both WWI and WWII, must have affected the tone and broad themes of the book. I am willing to be proved wrong!

Rather OT, but Juno should never be forgotten, my Dad was there with the Canadians that day.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Well, let's take this further to see what legs it can stand on.

And what of Japan?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

And what of Japan?

Or for that matter Italy? Mussolini was a tin-horn dictator and his armies never fared well (their battles in Ethiopia against Selasse were documented fiascos). Mussolini was never considered more than a demagogue and Hitler toadie, and the Italian army crumbled in Africa and Italy without much pressure and little success, so one really couldn't compare Benito with Saruman. Saruman's army was certainly effective (having won at the Battle of the Fords of Isen, for instance) and lost at Helm's Deep due to circumstances beyond their control, even though their battle strategy was sound (it was Saruman's lack of foresight that lost the day, not the army he sent out).

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I wouldn't go that far, FDR was cautious to keep America out of the war because the Americans wanted to stay out of it. Most likely America would have stayed out of the war in Europe entirely if it wasn't for Hitler declaring war on us.

But FDR did everything in his power to bring the US into the war. He pushed buttons so the US would be a attacked and he knew the Americans wouldn't stand for an attack. FDR was eventually going to war with Germany and FDR was going to ensure that. He just got lucky when Hitler declared war first. Though I do understand what you mean by cautious. When playing the political card and reelection he had no choice.

Who indeed gets to be Stalin?

Who played both sides enough to warrant it? Saruman maybe, but only to the fact he switched sides. He certainly wasn't doing things for the same reason Stalin was.