What happened to Mordor?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

warfare does not advance along technological lines (like the absence of plate armor and the use of gunpowder only after 3 full Ages of Middle-earth history). The interminable stasis over many millenia for me seems rather unbelievable (and for a fantasy, suspension of disbelief is paramount).

How long did it take us humans to invent gunpowder?

But yes, that is good point. In fact, technology seems to have gone downhill (though in the early middle ages that did happen too).

[Macalaure]

There is little change in technology (unless you refer to the numerous anachronisms in the Hobbit), and warfare does not advance along technological lines (like the absence of plate armor and the use of gunpowder only after 3 full Ages of Middle-earth history).

Keep in mind that it took humanity about 4000 years from the first Pyramids in Egypt (27th century BC) to the use of gunpowder in Europe (about 13th century AD). With the first three ages lasting about 7000 years, that makes Middle-earth only about twice as stagnant as reality.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

How long did it take us humans to invent gunpowder?

But yes, that is good point. In fact, technology seems to have gone downhill (though in the early middle ages that did happen too).

Well, it is said that the Chinese invented gunpowder in the 9th Century. They also invented the compass, paper and printing long before the Western World. Yet Chinese culture, like western culture, also for a time 'stopped' developing new technology. Perhaps this is a feature of human cultures that Tolkien emulated (and drew out through the ages)? Did Egyptian and Indian cultures also experience this lack of technological development? (It didn't stop them from creating monumental structures of great power and beauty.)

The other point to consider is the stagnation of elven culture and the possibility that this influenced the cultures of Men and Hobbits and Dwarves. We don't hear of compasses or printing in Middle-earth and while hobbits and men do have books, we don't know what the pages consist of. Certainly the inferrence is that they are hand printed. All in all, Middle-earth is a world very circumspect of technology, as was Tolkien himself. It could possibly be argued that it is an alternate world view, just as we now have the genre of alternate histories.

EDIT: cross-posted with Macalaure. Oh that pesky interrrupting invention, the telephone.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Keep in mind that it took humanity about 4000 years from the first Pyramids in Egypt (27th century BC) to the use of gunpowder in Europe (about 13th century AD). With the first three ages lasting about 7000 years, that makes Middle-earth only about twice as stagnant as reality.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The other point to consider is the stagnation of elven culture and the possibility that this influenced the cultures of Men and Hobbits and Dwarves. We don't hear of compasses or printing in Middle-earth and while hobbits and men do have books, we don't know what the pages consist of. Certainly the inferrence is that they are hand printed. All in all, Middle-earth is a world very circumspect of technology, as was Tolkien himself. It could possibly be argued that it is an alternate world view, just as we now have the genre of alternate histories.

Yes, yes...I am aware of the approximate differences in Middle-earth history as opposed to real-world history; however, the Elvish Culture, no matter how conservative and stagnant their society, should've blundered on inventions merely by continuous observation (a building block of the scientific method), that would be unavailable to pre-literate or early literate civilizations (such as the Sumerians or Egyptians), where the lifespan of a man/woman probably did not exceed 40 years (except for mythic 900 year-old biblical patriarchs). Additonally, the Elves, particularly the Noldor, had advanced training in Valinor very early on in their history (it's not like a centuries-long hit or miss method of discovering cuneiform for Hammurabi). Also, the dwarves, whose lifespans often hit the 300 mark, and were well known for their craftsmanship, commerce and business acuity, actually had their skills retard over time and continued puttering with mail.

All I'm saying is that one of Tolkien's strengths -- a great, sweeping panorama of time -- is also one of his weaknesses from a storyline perspective: an immense amount of time where basically nothing happens. Personally, I think a bit of time compression would have suited the plot better, or at least it would not have hurt the story and gave it more of a sense of believable continuity.

[skip spence]

A few things I'd like to add...

Firstly, although I agree that the technological and cultural entropy of Tolkien's world is quite unrealistic, it is also very poetic and on the whole I thinks it adds rather than detracts from my enjoyment of his works. I quite like the idea of a golden age when the world was magical and mythical, when there was beauty and craftmanship unsurpassed, when the grass was greener, the sky more blue and the mountains taller and more majestic.

Secondly, there is in fact an indication of printing presses in the Shire as Bilbo is reading a newspaper when Galdalf first arrives although in truth JRRT would have regretted this anachronism later on when his legendarium became more developed.

Thirdly, while there are no guns in ME there are two instances in LotR where a form of gunpowder presumably is used. The first one is Gandalf's fireworks, the other one is during the siege of Helm's Deep (as seen in the movies).

I've also wondered why the likes of Melkor and Sauron couldn't or didn't help their minions develop better weaponry and such. The armies of the bad guys always seem to be have poorer equpiment than the good guys where IMO it should have been the opposite way around. Take Melkor for instance. He was said to have had a part of the gifts of all his Valar brethren and to have been the greatest of them all in terms of power, although much of it was later spent. His first priority would also have been to conjure up a way to win the war. I would think he should've had the brains to invent some decent weapons for his minions, such as the machinegun, the mustard gas or the anti-personel mine.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I've also wondered why the likes of Melkor and Sauron couldn't or didn't help their minions develop better weaponry and such. The armies of the bad guys always seem to be have poorer equpiment than the good guys where IMO it should have been the opposite way around.

Well, that is a good point. Though If we're going on about no new technology, we must ask ouselves: What are the Rings of Power? What is the Ring? All technology. They weren't made in the "golden age". And I don't think the palantirs were either. And anyway, if we could go by the path of magic or technology, which would you go by? Many ancient civilisations wet for magic. It is only the ones that went for both (as they were so prosperous) that are remembered as "great". Whether their magic worked or not is another question. I don't believe it did, but that doesn't mean that didn't think it didn't, or that it was a pointless waste of time.
And all the people in positions to create better technology had magic. Take Gandalf ( he was a Maia, but anyway) for example. Insted of rubbing two sticks together (or later using a tinderbox) he could just make fire appear (and anyway, I think anyone, (well, maybe not anyone) could make fire wearing his ring) by saying a few words. No need to go through all the hassle of inventing matches and that sort of stuff (and later on, lighters- after all, he was immortal). And he would start a whole chemical industry, which somehow doesn't seem like the sort of person he is. And with a life of travelling (He was not called the Grey Pilgrim for nothing) how could he use an oven? Invention relies on those that have the knowledge of how to make something, and more importantly, having a reason to invent something like that, a driving need, or at least for the thing to have a purpose (especially very long ago). At leastthe person had to have an idea of something that had not yet been done, or as easily. It seems to me that a lighter is a step back from a ring that can allow you to make fire, never runs oout, and isn't bad for the environment (at least in the case of the ring itself). I just think that there was no need for him to make something for a purpose, when somethinng he already had could do it better.
Take Numenoreans. Men at their best. They would need to find some way to see and communicate with the rest of the world. They would be in a perfect postion to invent something But they already had the palantirs, which are still more advanced by anything we have. Hands-free .
Anyway, given the choice between magic and technology, I would go for magic. Much more immediate results. It either works or doesn't. Technology takes years for sometimes even the smallest part of an invention to be developed. And if all the "magic" was actually highly advanced technology, then who could hope to match that later on, and doesn't that prove that things were invented anyway?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, that is a good point. Though If we're going on about no new technology, we must ask ouselves: What are the Rings of Power? What is the Ring? All technology. They weren't made in the "golden age". And I don't think the palantirs were either. And anyway, if we could go by the path of magic or technology, which would you go by?

The Rings were made by Sauron and Celebrimbor, a Maia and a 1st Age Elf, at the very beginning of the 2nd Age. Feanor made the Palantiri in the 1st Age. Perhaps because of the Rings, all attempts at new 'technology' among the Elves stopped for 2 Ages, and all efforts by Elrond and Galadriel went into conservation of what was prior to the Rings, and given their immortality, there was no need for biomedical advances or any research whatsoever. How boring it was to be an elf! Sauron dabbled in genetics, but little else, and as skip spence pointed out, he made no effort at all in improving his arsenal (technology should have been important to Sauron -- he might have been immortal, but his armies were shortlived and poorly clad).

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Anyway, given the choice between magic and technology, I would go for magic. Much more immediate results. It either works or doesn't. Technology takes years for sometimes even the smallest part of an invention to be developed. And if all the "magic" was actually highly advanced technology, then who could hope to match that later on, and doesn't that prove that things were invented anyway?

Magic was innate in Middle-earth, either you had it or you didn't. Elves had it, dwarves basically lost it (according to Thorin and Gimli anyway), and men and hobbits never had it. Numenoreans tried a hand at geriatrics, or at least trying to find the fountain of youth in an alchemical sense, but failed, and their ships most likely were based on Teleri design, so they didn't do much technologically speaking.

Oh, and Macalaure, we forgot to add something in our discussion of real-world chronology as opposed to Middle-earth stagnance. The Real World had its Stone, Bronze, Iron and Steel Ages; whereas, the high cultures of Middle-earth went directly to steel and mithril (although limited in quantity).

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Oh, and Macalaure, we forgot to add something in our discussion of real-world chronology as opposed to Middle-earth stagnance. The Real World had its Stone, Bronze, Iron and Steel Ages; whereas, the high cultures of Middle-earth went directly to steel and mithril (although limited in quantity).

Yep. The professor does put Middle-earth into the technological and cultural state he wants them in as quickly as possible - and then he doesn't let it go again.

It occurred to me that most technological advances aren't acquired by the slow process that we have in reality, but are taught or at least facilitated by people who already were advanced. We can assume that Elves and Men, when they appeared in Middle-earth, were at the level of hunter-gatherers. For the Elves, the Valar preempt their natural development and fast-forward them into the steel-age (although the Noldor surpassed them in some ways a little later). The same happens more or less when Men, especially the Edain, meet the Elves. The Numenoreans developed mostly on their own, but they're a case of intellectual mass-doping, so their results are invalid. The Rings of Power could not have been forged without the help of the Maia Sauron, and in the 3rd age, the only ones to use the mentioned gunpowder are the Maiar Gandalf and Saruman. When left to their own devices, most Middle-earthian cultures seem to either slowly deteriorate/stagnate after reaching an early (induced) peak (Eldar, Dunedain, the Dwarves, too), or progress incredibly slowly throughout (Avari, Easterlings).

The political/social stagnation is even more apparent. I mean, you can put all major events of the 3rd age into a few lines. Try to do that with real history.

I don't mean to criticise. Middle-earth is fine as it is. Who knows whether it would still be as appealing if it would feel more real and less mythological.

technology should have been important to Sauron -- he might have been immortal, but his armies were shortlived and poorly clad

The evil side indeed completely stagnates technologically after the creation of the One Ring. Maybe the part of his power that Sauron put into his Ring was mostly brain power.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Rings were made by Sauron and Celebrimbor, a Maia and a 1st Age Elf, at the very beginning of the 2nd Age. Feanor made the Palantiri in the 1st Age. Perhaps because of the Rings, all attempts at new 'technology' among the Elves stopped for 2 Ages, and all efforts by Elrond and Galadriel went into conservation of what was prior to the Rings, and given their immortality, there was no need for biomedical advances or any research whatsoever.

So I undermined my own point. Ouch. Anyway, you've just said it there so I think my work is over in that area.

So Mac, the people learnt everything from higher civilisations (seems like a modern conspiracy theory). That is a good point. But even though we have a whole topic devoted on it, we still don't know whether the Ainur learnt the slow hard way, or were immediate masters (I tend to think the latter, though).

[skip spence]

Now as for the Elves apparent lack of technological development, I don't think they ran out of ideas, rather that they had no desire for it. For them "progress" has no value in itself and the reason they didn't invent things like guns, PC:s and internal combustion engines is probably because they felt the world would be a better place without such things. I think the difference is explained in HoME X (or elsewhere). When an Elf sees a beautiful thing he loves it for what it is and is content. When a man sees a beautiful thing however his enjoyment of it is fleeting as it soon reminds him of something else that he desires - something better. Therefore he is never content with what he has and always looks ahead for the next best thing. If he sees a tree, he sees timber; if he gets some money, he wants some more. I don't think capitalism would go down as well with the Elves (not trying to suggest they're communists either) as it does with Men.

Anyway, as Tolkien's Arda ages poorly, mountains, forests and streams go from fair and magical to drab and mundane. Therefore the Elves wanted to retain the status quo as far as possible. This is what the rings of power were meant to do I believe: to put nature in a stasis so that the weariness of the world would not affect it. Of course, Sauron had other ideas.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I sometimes suspect that the Elves became more enamored of Art than Invention after Feanor and events of the First Age showed them the seamy underbelly of "progress." Follow it up with the "invention" of the Rings of Power, and one could well decide that Invention is not such a wonderful thing after all; preservation is preferable. Sadly, it also tends to lead to stagnation, because one is always looking back rather than moving forward.

I also think that Sauron didn't go for improving his weaponry because without his Ring, he feared that any devices he might make could be used against him -- just as he feared that his own ultimate weapon, the Ring, might wind up in the hands of some enemy who could use it against him. He appears to have been going for a war of attrition in the Third Age, amassing such huge armies that their sheer numbers would overwhelm the opposition. Fear is also a good ally in such a case, a lesson he bitterly learned when Ar-Pharazon came marching in from Numenor and Sauron's forces (such as they were at that time) took one look and ran. What devices he had available he did use, such as the palantiri in Orthanc and Minas Tirith, but lacking his own master weapon, he probably gained more by sowing distrust and dissent and fear among his enemies. By making them constantly wary of attack, they would need to spend much of their resources in a constant posture of defense, taking the time, manpower, and materiel that might otherwise be used in developing improved technology.