The sinking of Numenor - a lesson to whom?

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Legate

In any case, on the other hand, even the "I will rip the world apart and look, as collateral damage it destroyed Númenor" explanation does not seem satisfactory, as Eru would surely know so we cannot label it as "accident" and the story even makes one think that it was not a mere "accident", right? Now I am a little exaggerating of course, but in any case we cannot avoid the question "so why did Eru do this?" and cannot just say "it just happened to be that way". Or so I would think.

Well, calling it an "accident" was a little bit of an exaggeration itself, that's why I put the quote marks around it. My idea is not Eru saying "Oops, I guess that was a little too much to the right.", but that his intent was only to destroy Ar-Pharazôn's fleet and army and to remove Valinor into eternal safety. He probably could have done this without destroying Númenor, but didn't. He also could have let the great rift go straight through Númenor and make the character of punishment uncontestable, but didn't either. This leads me to speculate that Eru has become indifferent to it. I can't find a quote stating that Eru wanted to coldly punish the Númenóreans or destroyed it in wrath.

Originally Posted by skip

As for why Eru chose to destroy Numenor and remove Aman from the circles of the earth it is hard to say. Personally I feel that Tolkien thought not so much about Eru's inner motives and the theological implications when he wrote the story but rather about how good a story, or myth, it was, tying in with the Atlantis myth as it does. He probably pondered the theology as well, but imo this was more likely an afterthought and not the prime motivation behind the story.

With this I completely agree. And that is why it makes such a good topic for discussion. However, if you think this, then how do you know that

Originally Posted by skip

The Numenorians were not allowed to come to Aman. They did come however with the intention to make war upon it and were severly punished.

While it certainly was a punishment to the Númenóreans, how can you tell that it was Eru's intention to punish them? This is more than just splitting hairs: Only if it was Eru's intention to punish them, it makes sense to ask who the lesson was directed at.

In the Silmarillion there are many deeds worthy of punishment by Eru, especially by Morgoth, yet he never comes to punish them. Why would Eru make such an exception? Why does he count the trespasses of those who are supposed to rule Arda in his stead less than the trespasses of his Children that live in it? Would it not make more sense the other way around?

Originally Posted by skip

I don't think it is difficult to answer. I believe Tolkien made it quite clear that Eru is limitless or omnipotent in relation to his creation, Eä, and that he (is it he btw?) could have chosen to spare all those who were innocent with a thought only, had he wished to do so. The destruction of Numenor was no accident.

Well, whether he could have spared the innocents with a thought only is debatable. Seeing how long it took the Valar, even without the interruptions of Melkor, to build Arda, it might have been quite toilsome. That's why I get the impression that Eru didn't care about them enough to choose the scalpel over the broadsword.

Originally Posted by Legate

This is actually a good point, because it seems to me this far we managed to fall into the trap of Morgoth together with the Middle-Earthians and take death as something negative. While it's actually a Gift, for the Men. So we shouldn't maybe worry about the death of the "innocent" (?) inhabitants of Númenor too much.

This is certainly true, however, removing a person from life forcefully is considered to be evil. As I said in my last post, if indeed this was supposed to be a lesson, it was one of ambiguous content.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Well, calling it an "accident" was a little bit of an exaggeration itself, that's why I put the quote marks around it. My idea is not Eru saying "Oops, I guess that was a little too much to the right."

Of course, I was aware of it. That's why I said it's a little exaggeration also when I was writing my post.

In the Silmarillion there are many deeds worthy of punishment by Eru, especially by Morgoth, yet he never comes to punish them. Why would Eru make such an exception? Why does he count the trespasses of those who are supposed to rule Arda in his stead less than the trespasses of his Children that live in it? Would it not make more sense the other way around?

Actually, here we are back at what I said earlier about Manwë's prayer to Eru. Eru did not interfere when the Trees were destroyed, and in lots of other events of all-world importance. Curiously, the sending of Istari, as noted in UT, is said to be on account of Manwë, and Christopher notes that on the edge the Prof marked: "And perhaps he asked Eru for counsel?" In any case, what I want to point out here is that you actually don't usually see Eru acting in any direct, apparent way in the stories (not talking about HoME here, I don't know them, but even then, the tales in them are not among the "canonical" stuff). He rather makes the impression of somebody sitting "outside" and watching it all. But when he is specifically asked, he acts. But this happens really just a few times.
So, stemming from this, the destruction of Númenor, to me, doesn't look like the well-thought intervence of the omnipotent and omniscient creator, but rather the intervence of the omnipotent and omniscient creator who was asked by desperate King of Arda and heard his call. Something like "okay, you asked for it, so I will do it". And if I caricate it a little bit, he might have been saying: "All right, dear Manwë, I understand you. Yes, the course of the events is horrible, Men are going to violate Aman. I will remove the Undying Lands. *cough*itwilldestroynúmenorasitisontheedgeoftherif t*cough*" This is actually how I would imagine it.

[alatar]

Ah, so we finally get the answer. The lesson was pointed at Manwe! I'm not sure what the lesson is, whether that he should have called on Eru earlier to solve some issues, or that he, being King of Arda, should NOT have ever needed to call on Eru.

Regardless, if we are polling, I'm going with Manwe.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

Ah, so we finally get the answer. The lesson was pointed at Manwe! I'm not sure what the lesson is, whether that he should have called on Eru earlier to solve some issues, or that he, being King of Arda, should NOT have ever needed to call on Eru.

Regardless, if we are polling, I'm going with Manwe.

Well. But, and did you also consider the possibility that there simply was no lesson intended in these circumstances?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well. But, and did you also consider the possibility that there simply was no lesson intended in these circumstances?

Possibly, but as a 'learning creature,' I always look for survival patterns - i.e. what to do to avoid being stomped.

Lesson one - If Manwe sets aside his authority, run (don't walk) to the nearest submarine berthing facility, find one and set sail east as quickly as possible.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate

Eru, as far as I know, is addressed as "he" in the book

Actually, I wasn't trying to be clever. I just couldn't remember how Eru was adressed in the Silmarillion nor be bothered to look it up. You could however make the argument that Eru, in contrast to the Valar, in actuality was beyond any gender-description, being the One, although the Elves who wrote down the myth/history assumed he was a he, as they lived in a patriarchical society. But this is not a point I'd like to take any further.

Originally Posted by Legate

And also, in particular, if he, as you say, wanted the creation to be perfect and complete, why not make it himself and instead call some Ainur, who only made a mess.

I don't presume to know what Eru wanted, I just got this impression. Eru wanted to create a work of art, a beautiful creation, a perfect drama. He could have made everything perfect to begin with, but where's the fun in that? Like I said earlier, perfection loses much of it's gloss without the possibility of chaos, beauty is diminished without ugliness, the merit of being good is lost without the possibility of a fall, without a lower path. He wanted his children to discover prefection and goodness by themselves, not just lay it out for them ordered and ready.

This is also why I said that Eru cares little about the suffering of individual people. Eru always had full knowledge that millions or rather billions of good people would suffer horribly before his great drama would play out and end happily.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

While it certainly was a punishment to the Númenóreans, how can you tell that it was Eru's intention to punish them? This is more than just splitting hairs: Only if it was Eru's intention to punish them, it makes sense to ask who the lesson was directed at.In the Silmarillion there are many deeds worthy of punishment by Eru, especially by Morgoth, yet he never comes to punish them. Why would Eru make such an exception? Why does he count the trespasses of those who are supposed to rule Arda in his stead less than the trespasses of his Children that live in it? Would it not make more sense the other way around?

Why can I say it was Eru's intention to punish the Numenorians? Because the Numenorians were punished, that's why. Well, maybe I shouldn't be so cocksure, but I've hard time interpreting it any other way. Ar-Pharazon acted, Eru reacted, and like I thought we agreed on, Eru doesn't make mistakes. He wanted to destroy Numenor.

As to why he chose to punish the Numenorians but not any other people or individuals at any other time it's hard to say though. As I see it there's one unique thing about this episode. Men, as I remember having read somewhere, are supposed to be free to make their own fate beyond the Music, something which the elder children and even the Valar were not. Therefore, when Morgoth slew the trees, or when Feanor attacked and killed the Teleri, the events must (according to this interpretation) have been foretold in the Music and been a part of Eru's grand plan. Ar-Pharazon's attack on Aman need not have been so, and Eru could have felt the nessesity to act when he saw that his second children used this special freedom to make war upon Aman and his special friends the Ainur. Or perhaps he just did a favour for an old friend? But I agree with you that petty retaliation seems below Eru. There must be a message, a lesson to be learned. But here I'm stuck. I agree with Morth that this story is a wedding of the Biblical flood and the Atlantis-myth. But to be quite honest, I've a hard time figuring out what is to be learned from the biblical flood too, apart from the importance of sacrificing ritually clean beasts and follow best as you can God's every whim. Anyone?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

While it certainly was a punishment to the Númenóreans, how can you tell that it was Eru's intention to punish them? This is more than just splitting hairs: Only if it was Eru's intention to punish them, it makes sense to ask who the lesson was directed at.In the Silmarillion there are many deeds worthy of punishment by Eru, especially by Morgoth, yet he never comes to punish them. Why would Eru make such an exception? Why does he count the trespasses of those who are supposed to rule Arda in his stead less than the trespasses of his Children that live in it? Would it not make more sense the other way around?

Originally Posted by skip spence

Why can I say it was Eru's intention to punish the Numenorians? Because the Numenorians were punished, that's why. Well, maybe I shouldn't be so cocksure, but I've hard time interpreting it any other way. Ar-Pharazon acted, Eru reacted, and like I thought we agreed on, Eru doesn't make mistakes. He wanted to destroy Numenor.

As to why he chose to punish the Numenorians but not any other people or individuals at any other time it's hard to say though...

Numenor was the 'Land of the Gift' and Numenoreans were a chosen people, and, as is usual in most mythologies (the bible included), those who receive such gifts bear heavy responibilities in lieu of said gifts. Why were the Numenoreans punished? Simple, they squandered their gift, became overproud and sought to become gods themselves (or immortal in any case). As a parallel, look at the Israelites. They were Yahweh's chosen folk, but no race in the bible is more persecuted, more enslaved, and more likely to be forced from their lands and to wander aimlessly in a diaspora. The Numenoreans got off lightly if one considers their entire history.

Eru, in righteous indignation (and grouchy over having being woken up by an early morning emergency call from Manwe), smote the Numenoreans (both Ar-Pharazon's army and the sinners and King's men on the island) and took back the 'Land of the Gift'; however, he saved the Faithful who adhered to the old, reverential ways. The parallels to biblical accounts are obvious.