A question about class in Middle Earth

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interestingly enough, Smeagol's Stoor line that remigrated from the area of the Angle and settled back in the Vales of Anduin was matriarchal (or at least, that's the assumption based on the gleanings we get from Tolkien), one of the few instances (Haleth and perhaps Galadriel -- being equipollent with Celeborn -- being others) where strong female leaders were present. I suppose you could add the ruling queens of Numenor before Ar-Pharazon usurped the crown and forced marriage upon the last presumptive queen, Miriel. Sadly, thereafter primogeniture seems to have been the rule in Gondor among the kings and ruling stewards (as you perceptively stated, the daughters of Elessar didn't even warrant a mention).

Well now, I am glad you did not assume I was referring to Coleridge's definition of patrician.

Even more interesting is the fact that, if I recall correctly, the only pure incidence of shunning in LotR is that of Smeagol by his matriarchal clan, although the parochialism of the hobbits suggest all hobbits harbour that potential. Didn't the ruling queens of Numenor rule only because they lacked male siblings?

But as I mentioned, Elessar's decree about limiting access to the Shire suggests at least a paternalism, as if the hobbits were regarded as children, as they didn't labour for Gondor.

Of course, we don't know who worked the tobacco fields.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Mind if just drag this thread back to the original topic for a moment? Mansun, you didn't simply ask whether social classes existed in M-E, you said:

I must apologise to Mansun, as I assumed his use of between represented the common confusion of between and among, but Nerwen's post suggests that between is indeed the operant word.

Originally Posted by [QUOTE=Nerwen

Now, that question is answered pretty comprehensively in the next post. However, I'm just curious about what made you think of it to begin with.

Because, you see, societies with species-based class-systems do crop up in speculative fiction, I can't recall any sign of that in Middle-earth (apart from the example Morthoron gives). Or have you seen something I've missed/

Did Dwarves ever hold fealty to the Elves? I had always assumed they were thoroughly independent. Certainly the Appendix "Durin's Folk" speaks only of the awakening of Durin's people and their coming to Azanulbizar, and the pure line of the dwarven monarchy.

The views of Gandalf on Hobbits from the Shire in general, and the reluctance of the Elves to welcome other races within their realm, suggested some evidence of a class divide in Middle Earth. Even Rohan was seen as a poorer and less mighty a country than it's neighbour, Gondor.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The views of Gandalf on Hobbits from the Shire in general, and the reluctance of the Elves to welcome other races within their realm, suggested some evidence of a class divide in Middle Earth. Even Rohan was seen as a poorer and less mighty a country than it's neighbour, Gondor.

Class has nothing to do with what you are talking about in most cases.

Gandalf can be condescending, patrician or elitist to anyone he chooses, Mansun. He is neither a different class, nor a different race, he is an elemental, angelic being in a humanoid form (a Maia).

Again, with Elves there may be views of a racial (or genus) superiority, but it is not a matter of class, and the reasons they no longer have commerce with other races does not necessarily impute they feel racially superior. The elves were withdrawing from the world (from the Now or Present you might say), and retreating into the Past Perfect. With the aid of the Elven Rings they created artifical paradises at Rivendell and Lothlorien (but let it be said that the Last Homely House always welcomed wayfarers of good will if they could find the correct paths). The Silvan Elves under Thranduil traded regularly with the men of Laketown, and there was no imputation of superiority (they even aided Laketown when it was destroyed by Smaug).

Regarding Gondor and Rohan, there was originally a vow of vassalage between the leaders of both lands (the Oath Of Eorl), but almost all the actual fealty and bonds of vassalage had long since been suspended by the time of the War of the Ring. Did Gondorions feel superior to the Rohirrim? Again, it would not be a 'class-centric' view, but rather a national egoism or racial pride (of Numenor), and except for some disparaging remarks by Denethor (who was rather disparaging to everyone, even his own son), there is no evidence of it among other Gondorions toward the Rohirrim in the books.

The closest one gets to actual class warfare or animosity is between the Dunlenders and the Rohirrim (rather like the oppressed Celts against the Romano-Britons, or the Anglo-Saxons and the Normans). Because we know far more about the Shire than any other realm, we have a fairly good idea of society and class structure among the Hobbits (the Victorian or Edwardian relationship between Sam and Frodo being the most pronounced), the views of Hobbiton regarding the queer folk of The Marish, and the Squires of the Brandybucks and Tooks.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Did Dwarves ever hold fealty to the Elves? I had always assumed they were thoroughly independent. Certainly the Appendix "Durin's Folk" speaks only of the awakening of Durin's people and their coming to Azanulbizar, and the pure line of the dwarven monarchy.

No, I can't recall any such bonds of fealty. The Elves and the Dwarves were always distinct and separate (sometimes malevolently so), even when they had great friendship such as arose between Hollin and Moria.

[Nerwen]

Mansun, class divide = stratification within a society, not one society looking down on another.

[Lalaith]

Yes, I agree - for the Rohirrim to look down on the Dunlendings, or for the Elves to look down on Men, has nothing to do with class and everything to do with cultural/racial prejudices...
Hobbit society seems to me to be a slightly more egalitarian version of the class systems of early 20th century rural England.

Elrond and his family, and Galadriel and her family, were presumably considered 'grander' than the ordinary elves who populated Rivendell and Lorien. I also get the feeling that the Calaquendi looked down on the Moriquendi and that the folk of Thranduil were a bit more rustic and less grand than the Galadhrim or the cosmopolitans of Rivendell.

Gondorian society was more class-ridden, I feel, than that of Rohan. The Anglo-Saxons were much more egalitarian than the Normans that conquered them, and I think there is a correlation.

Tolkien himself was certainly not an aristocrat. His father was a bank manager (middle-middle) and his grandparents were shopkeepers (lower-middle).
Tolkien himself though, as an academic, would qualify as upper-middle, so there's a bit of British social mobility for you...

(PS - Remains of the Day was actually written by a Japanese author, Kazuo Ishiguro....and if you want really complex class systems, all you have to do is read To Kill a Mockingbird....small town Alabama....)

[Bêthberry]

While I agree that usually "class structure" is a sociological construct to suggest divisions within a society--divisions determined by economic, political, and/or cultural traits--there is also the use of "class" to mean high social rank or style. "She's a classy lady." "First class tickets" In this sense, LotR is loaded with "class" attributes. As a mythology of ancient times, it follows the pattern of focussing upon the aristocracy--Patrician as both Morthoron and I said earlier--so that we lack much evidence about the huddled masses of Gondor, Rohan, the dwarven kingdoms. (Actually, I have a sense that dwarven culture is far less class-ridden--as in having fewer social divides--than Gondorian or hobbit culture.)

Both meanings can be argued in the story.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

. (Actually, I have a sense that dwarven culture is far less class-ridden--as in having fewer social divides--than Gondorian or hobbit culture.)

Love the way that all the non-Brits are arguing about class but agreeing that we are obsessed about it . I just think that the great social mobility of the last century provided a rich seam for drama and humour which many writers and film makers have exploited. And the social mobility is reflected in LOTR particularly of Tolkien's works. Think of Faramir talking about Gondor and Rohan and Sam rising to be Mayor and his daughter marrying the Thain's son.

The Shire was changing just as England was. It is a very different place to when (at about the time of Tolkien's birth) that one of my great grandmothers was disowned by her family for marrying into trade and caused scandal by riding a bicycle. The former seems just as ludicrous as the latter now.

Another great-grandmother was an illiterate Irish immigrant so I owe my existance to a degree of social mobility! Certainly my parents had very different backgrounds - my father's feet are crumpled because his widowed mother couldn't afford shoes for him as soon as he needed them, but at least at the time it was possible for a poor boy with a good brain to get an education and a scholarship to university which had a ripple effect throughout the rest of his family.

If there are three classes in Britain now I would say they are those who don't work, those who work and those who don't need to work. The type of work people do is rather more significant these days than accent or the words you use for rooms or meals. And I have to say that I notice plenty of "class" distinction in American programmes and books - anything set in New York seems chocabloc with it for starters, let alone Desperate Housewives, Shark, The Riches, all those films where the girl from the trailer park fights it out with the rich girl to be Prom queen or whatever... And the most class conscious film I ever saw was French (Priez pour Nous) but heigh ho... you keep you national stereotypes and we'll keep ours

To get back to Tolkien, there is a clear hierachy between the kindred of the Elves, and with Men there is an even more refined hierachy - the purer Numenoreans being a cut above even within the superior realm of Gondor. With the Dwarves the line of Durin is top and even the Orcs make distinctions from the Uruk-hai down to the snufflers. It is clearly a very hierachical world from the Valar down... but that is hardly suprising for a mythology which concern generally the great and the good (and the great at being bad), the powers of the world not the "poor ****** infantry".

So having had the first version of this lost in a computer crash,I shall post and wait for the gauntlet... (fish knives at dawn no doubt)....

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Mansun, class divide = stratification within a society, not one society looking down on another.

''You need not speak to me as to one of the fools you take for friends. I have not brought you here to be instructed by you, but to give you a choice''.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

''You need not speak to me as to one of the fools you take for friends. I have not brought you here to be instructed by you, but to give you a choice''.

The correct wording of the quote is "I have not brought you hither to be instructed by you...", and I am not quite sure if what you're quoting is merely obscurant or meant to be insulting (one of the problems with speaking obtusely).

Also, I must say your brief and somewhat vague replies are not the least constructive for the continuance of this dialogue. Please try to be a bit more expansive, and then perhaps we can pick up on this thread's derailed train of thought, which seemingly never made it to the station at its scheduled time.

[Nerwen]

Mansun, what point are you trying to make with that quote?

At most it means that Saruman had the idea that he and his fellow–Maiar might become a ruling class. That wasn't the actual situation.

Besides, this is Saruman we're talking about. He may not have been sincere, but rather planning to enlist Gandalf's aid, then stab him in the back.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The correct wording of the quote is "I have not brought you hither to be instructed by you...", and I am not quite sure if what you're quoting is merely obscurant or meant to be insulting (one of the problems with speaking obtusely).

Also, I must say your brief and somewhat vague replies are not the least constructive for the continuance of this dialogue. Please try to be a bit more expansive, and then perhaps we can pick up on this thread's derailed train of thought, which seemingly never made it to the station at its scheduled time.

I sincerely apologise for using here instead of hither. Does that comfort you, Morthoron (this name sounds all too much like foul Mouth of Sauron)?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, I am assuming that the quote isn't meant to be directed at anyone.

Saruman was the ultimate elitest loremaster in Middle Earth, with this theme being even more prevalent in the film version. Though, of course, this was almost totally due to his obssession with power, not social class.