No Sun or Moon

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

What I do find intriguing is that in his later years he wanted to try to "correct" his early stories to fit the current structure of the solar system. I think this was a mistake because it is to presume that the solar system always was as it is now. Fact is, it's littered with shrapnel and disarray as if it has been a war zone of some cosmic kind: asteroid belt, comets, various moons and planets with striations crisscrossing them; planets rotating oddly, unstable atmospheres - all of which should not exist in a solar system unchanged for billions of years.

I agree that Tolkien's later attempt to "correct" his Legendarium's cosmology was a mistake, but I disagree about why.

Tolkien's concern that the story of the Trees and the flat earth was unbelievable or unrealistic (especially in light of modern science) seems to me to miss a fundamental point - his whole Legendarium was necessarily unrealistic. Of course, nowadays no educated person would believe that the sun and moon were actually the last fruit and flower of two ancient trees; similarly, no educated person would believe that there was once a magical Ring that turned its wearer invisible. Nor that Venus is in fact not a world like ours but rather a radiant gem worn on the brow of a mariner on a ship that can fly.

To attempt to make the Legendarium scientifically accurate would have been to discard the whole thing and invent an entirely new story. These things are not realistic; they cannot be made realistic save by deleting them; and they are not supposed to be realistic for these are works of fantasy. I, for one, find the late 'Myths Transformed' mythology no more believable than the earlier one, and significantly less beautiful.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Aiwendil, you bring up an interesting point there - perhaps Tolkien's mythology of decreasing beauty and power applies to himself as well?! His later revisions did not equal the power and imagination of his first sub-creative works.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I agree that Tolkien's later attempt to "correct" his Legendarium's cosmology was a mistake, but I disagree about why.... - his whole Legendarium was necessarily unrealistic. Of course, nowadays no educated person would believe that the sun and moon were actually the last fruit and flower of two ancient trees; similarly, no educated person would believe that there was once a magical Ring that turned its wearer invisible. Nor that Venus is in fact not a world like ours but rather a radiant gem worn on the brow of a mariner on a ship that can fly.

Of course. These are beautiful symbols meant to convey something real.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

To attempt to make the Legendarium scientifically accurate would have been to discard the whole thing and invent an entirely new story.

I would distinguish between a few points here. To discard the whole thing would be tragic. To invent an entirely new story would be wonderful. In Tolkien's case, I think this would not have mattered so much considering that he kept many of his previous drafts. As to making the Legendarium scientifically accurate, this I think was a waste of time because we can't be sure to what degree current science is, in fact, an accurate representation of what is real. For example, Black Holes and neutron stars have never been proven to exist. But more significantly a 'uniformitarian' paradigm for the history of the solar system is falling apart like a house of cards the more we explore it. Yet the current scientific community writes as if they are all givens.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

These things are not realistic...

This is in my opinion an unfortunate word choice. If, by realistic, you mean "not accurate according to current scientific and cultural understanding", I can agree. If, however, you mean "not real", then I cannot agree on the grounds that it cannot be proven that material phenomena understood by modern humans is all that is real.

But all this deviates from the main thread I am most interested in pursuing, which is: what is Tolkien's basis for a pre-sun and moon Golden Age?