Christopher Tolkien: kill HOBBIT film

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

While not being a tax accountant or attorney, I do know this much: you never have to pay income tax unless you first generate the income. JRRT - God bless him - generated lots of income. He took the profit sharing checks and cashed them and spent them. And then the tax came due and surprise surprise - no money was left. I do not think he was all by himself in that line.

I think that you are missing the point that the tax rate was potentially over 100% ie he was expected to pay more than he had actually earnt. Which is not something most of us could cope with especially without the benefit of collateral.
. It isn't quite the same as me knowing that when I receive my dividends I should put aside 10-20% for the bill that will arrive at Christmas. He didn't just go mad at Blackwells or anywhere. This was a man who had worked hard and struggled to feed and educate his family, who lived in a modest house with very basic amenities in Oxford, hit by a punitive tax regime from a Labour Government that was actually socialist and was trying to redistribute wealth as well as shore up a dire economy. To make a man who lived as frugally as Tolkien seem a irresponsible spendthrift while wilfully ignoring the reality of the situation is neither fair nor charitable.

[Sauron the White]

from WCH

There was also the fact that Tolkien had been forced in 1968 to make an unplanned move to Bournemouth and buy a very expensive house, which probably consumed most of his liquid cash.

Carpenter says that JRRT and Edith decided to move for several reasons including to be with people of their own class. I find no evidence that Tolkien had been forced to do anything that he did not himself elect to do including use of that cash to buy what he wanted to buy instead of putting it aside for taxes.

This entire line of excuse - that JRRT was thrust into this terrible tight spot where he had to swallow hard, grit his teeth and give up his beloved baby to an evil government is a bit much.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This entire line ofexcuse - that JRRT was thrust into this terrible tight spot where he had to swallow hard, grit his teeth and give up his beloved baby to an evil government is a bit much.

Any government that imposes the draconian, sadistic levels of taxation Harold Wilson's did is ipso facto evil.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Any government that imposes the draconian, sadistic levels of taxation Harold Wilson's did is ipso facto evil.

I seem to remember at that point in time in Britain there was a great drain of talent (actors and rock stars with large amounts of disposable income mostly) who fled to the US or France to escape the ridiculous taxation. George Harrison's 'Taxman' sums it up nicely (including a snide jab at Harold Wilson):

Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
'Cause I'm the taxman
Yeah, I'm the taxman

Should five percent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
'Cause I'm the taxman
Yeah, I'm the taxman

(If you drive a car) I'll tax the street
(If you try to sit) I'll tax your seat
(If you get too cold) I'll tax the heat
(If you take a walk) I'll tax your feet

Taxman!

'Cause I'm the taxman
Yeah, I'm the taxman

Don't ask me what I want it for
(Tax man, Mr. Wilson)
If you don't want to pay some more
(Tax man, Mr. Heath)
'Cause I'm the taxman
Yeah, I'm the taxman

Now my advice for those who die (Taxman!)
Declare the pennies on your eyes (Taxman!)
'Cause I'm the taxman
Yeah, I'm the taxman

And you're working for no one, but me
(Taxman!)

[Sauron the White]

I did not think we were debating the merits of high tax versus low tax. In fact, I thought there was a strict policy here of NOT discussing political issues and keeping it on point of Tolkien and his creations. I am not a British citizen and have no opinion on their tax system, its history or its application and impact. All I know, and what I have stated, is that every citizen has to pay their taxes just like any other expense.

There is a obvious undercurrent here in some posts which more or less go like this:

The evil , terrible, opressive government used their coercive state powers to force kindly, old JRRT into a no-win spot putting a gun to his head forcing him to unwillingly sell film rights to a bunch of satanic pirates who then destroyed the heart and soul of his work making movies we now hate.

Its really a bit silly.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

There is a obvious undercurrent here in some posts which more or less go like this:

The evil , terrible, opressive government used their coercive state powers to force kindly, old JRRT into a no-win spot putting a gun to his head forcing him to unwillingly sell film rights to a bunch of satanic pirates who then destroyed the heart and soul of his work making movies we now hate.

Undercurrent?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I

The evil , terrible, opressive government used their coercive state powers to force kindly, old JRRT into a no-win spot putting a gun to his head forcing him to unwillingly sell film rights to a bunch of satanic pirates who then destroyed the heart and soul of his work making movies we now hate.

Its really a bit silly.

No, the only undercurrent is some of us like to put the record straight.... you make unfounded accusations such as Tolkien was financially profligate with only genaralities like "we all have to pay tax". Then when those of us who are British citizens, accountants, lawyers point out the facts we are some how contravening Downs rules.

Stating historical fact is not political ... I very much doubt that referring to forty year old fiscal legislation will get me banned but you are welcome to try. Just don't pin some secret agenda from your own imagination on me.

[Sauron the White]

Mith - you do tend to overstate the point.
Trying to get you banned? Invited to try? Absurd. I am simply sick and tired of every once in a while voicing an opinion on some currents events topic and then I get the obligitory slap on the wrist message or post from a moderator saying in no uncertain terms that such discussion is not welcome here and take it elsewhere. If I did bother to take a day or two and educate myself to the history, advantages and disadvantages of the British tax system and then posted factual information to rebutt what you or others posted, there would follow a stern posting from a moderator saying this is not the place for it. So what would be the point of that? But a discussion about film rights becomes a cause for the anti-government crowd to bash taxation policy.

That is not the issue and never has been the issue.

Was this British tax law passed with JRRTolkien as its only target or was this a law which applied to the entire populace of Great Britain who earned those levels of income? Thats all I need to know.

I am not making judgments about how Tolkien spent his money. It was his to spend how he wanted. WCH mentioned his purchase of a more expensive house at the time he owed the tax. Carpenter, in his biography of JRRT, states that Edith wanted a better place to be with people of the class she believed she had attained.

Again, there is a clear undercurrent at work here. People who hate the movies for their own reasons seem to cringe when they are reminded that JRRT freely sold those rights without any artistic control of his own over how they were used. Tolkien was a willingly participant in allowing anyone with that license to make whatever changes to his work they so wanted to make. He knew that when he signed the contract and cashed the check.

But now, its because something of a minor cause here to puff out your Purist chest and flail away at the films and cry to the heavens that poor old JRRT was literally forced to sell those rights by the mean old government and it really is not his fault for doing so. The poor old man was mugged in the alleyway.

Gimmeabreak.