Tol-in-Gaurhoth XLVII: Dueling Wizards Werewolf II

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by THE Ka

Mostly that of the WW(s) not knowing the EW, in light of the fact that they cannot become very maverick if all their decisions and acting for the next day is determined via the EW's approval/disapproval. Though, then again the EW might simply use the WW(s)' range of influence individually and still have what they want without loosing any power up to them if they don't know one another, but still they have to submit any ideas off to the EW.

The reason the EW may not want the wolves to know her identity is because if the GW scries a werewolf, that wolf imediately changes sides and becomes an ordo. More importantly, an ordo who knows the identity of the EW and can share it with the village. Each wizard wants to protect their own identity sso that they can challenge the other wizard on their own terms, ie. when the conditions are in favor of their respective teams. So the EW is hesitant to the wolves any information.

[Lhunardawen]

Oh, my poor dead father. You had it coming, I'm afraid...you're too wise to be left alive if the wolves couldn't get you to join them.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Aw, too bad. I lost my future father-in-law! Ah, well at least he died knowing his daughter would be happy.

That is if she lives through this.

I don't like the sound of this, my dear. In fact, I'm not sure I like the sound of what you've been saying so far. Heaven help me if I'm actually engaged to a wizard.

Originally Posted by sally

"Lhuna, my dear cousin, are you sure you know what you're doing? You certainly have picked an odd'un."

You know, this is a perfectly sound question.

I'm siding with Roa that it is more important for us to find the wolves than the EW. I think there will be enough of that during the Nights, with the GW trying to look for her herself (if all her gifteds stay alive, that is), and she could be asking her gifteds to do the same, for all we know. My point is, the GW knows her job and we can trust her to do it. Our role here is to look for the wolves, because they're our immediate foes.

You're right, phantom, that it will be tougher to look for them since we can't rely on connections. But history has proved that lynching a wolf in these circumstances is possible. There are other things to consider, like general posting sense and helpfulness and all that. I guess we could partly be guided by keeping the EW in mind, though. I think the EW would prefer wolves less likely to be lynched than the very brilliant ones who attract the noose like flowers to bees.

By the way, this is just a suggestion, but I think that after the initial rantings about the dead, maybe we could do away with the RPG style of writing. Nogmod didn't require it, if my memory's to be trusted, and they're kind of hard to read through. It will be bad enough to have to crawl through so many posts with this large a village.

[the phantom]

I'd love to stay and chat, but I simply must get some sleep. Early morning tomorrow.

I will check in briefly, go to work for a bit, and then return for the last few hours of the day.

[Roa_Aoife]

I'm afraid I must be leaving as well. I'll be back on briefly tomorrow about 4 hours before deadline, and I'll have to vote then, since I don't get off work again until 2 hours after deadline. Good hunting everyone.

[Durelin]

The wolves still have a guilty conscience, fear of lynching, and an agenda. It's not really any different. Connections people draw often seem to leave out one wolf who slips by quietly, anyway, even when it seems all is figured out.

Also, what's to say the EW wouldn't let their wolves know each other at least, if not communicate? That is certainly an advantage to them, unless of course the EW doesn't want them to be able to create connections among themselves except by chance. But oh yeah, duh...who's a wolf and who's not can change at anytime.

Originally Posted by tp

Btw, I'd kind of like to be scried multiple times by the two of you during this game. Not on the same night, mind you! I just think it would be fun to switch sides and maybe get to chat with both Wizards in the course of one village.

That is the coolest thing about this game.

[satansaloser2005]

Drat. I was rather hoping for a flurry of posts while I was gone, but alas....

Okay, I'm going back to my house to get some sleep. I'll try to get up early(ish) so I can post before work. In case that proves impossible, however, I'll find some other way to post before deadline.

Speak up, people! I want to wake up to your lovely voices!

Good night, sweet princes/princesses (wow, that was random),
~~Sally~~



EDIT: x'd with Roa and Durie....of course....NOW people post.... :P

[satansaloser2005]

Oh, that reminds me. Noggie, can the GW/EW scry the same person two nights in a row? I know you can't heal someone two nights in a row, but I didn't know if that applied to scries as well. Reason I ask is that I had a dream last night that the wizards kept fighting over someone and pretty much taking turns scrying them. Pity that I can't remember who it was, but it made me wonder nonetheless.

[Gwathagor]

I just got back late from Ironman, and I have to go sleep now, but I thought I'd check in briefly.

It's been fun watching Roa and the phantom go at it. Thanks for giving me something to read.

I can't remember who said what exactly (it's late for me), but it seems like the key here is to try to track down the Evil Wizard, because he/she is constant whereas the wolves can change any day. In the couple of games that I have played, a case is usually built against a player over a period of several days, based on voting records and other accumulated evidence and suspicion. Hardly ever is the first person lynched a wolf, which I think demonstrates that a single day is rarely enough to identify a baddie, which is why I think it's better to make a concerted effort to find the EW, than to scramble about every day trying to flush out that day's unique wolf line-up. No, I'm not saying "don't look for wolves." But I do think most of our energy should be directed towards tracking down the EW. In my opinion.

Ok, early day of work tomorrow. Lords and ladies need relieving of their valuables. Got to rest up.

[Brinniel]

Okay, so we know there aren't connections between the wolves as they probably don't know of each other. So we should look for a different connection...and that'd be between the EW and the wolves. By lynching wolves, we will have better clues to who the EW may be.

And yes I know the EW didn't specifically choose the wolves last Night. But they did make a list...therefore each person on that list was chosen for some reason to be considered for a wolf. Anyone who is a wolf is one because of the EW. For these first Days, we should find the wolves...then search for the EW. I think that's the best plan right now.

[Isabellkya]

Izzie raises her cup to her lips and sips the tea, in the middle of swallowing she half chokes and half spits it out. "I dare say, I've never been a tea drinker - not sure who would think it the choice of the elderly." She stretches and dumps the tea out the window, refilling her cup with cool spiked apple juice; "ahh much more welcoming to the palette."

Why must it be a choice of either focusing on the wolves, or focusing on the EW? Can we not multi-task? The GW is perhaps better equiped at finding the EW, yet there is no crime in helping her out.

Keeping the population of wolves to under four, I think would be a very smart idea - as obviously we would only be subjected to one kill a night. Yet letting the EW to roam free, capable of popping out wolves like a well oiled factory - is something we need to face now, rather than wait.

I think it would be pure folly for both the EW and GW to hand out their identity to their minions at the get-go. As well as allow all of them to know the indentities of their fellow minions. There is no guarantee that you will keep your role and alignment as a wolf/gifted/ordo for the duration of the game.

If a wolf is turned to an ordo, what reason would they have to keep whatever information they learned a secret? The same for an ordo>gifted>ordo>wolf?

I'd have to re-examine the discussion thread, because I have a couple more thoughts which the answers are not jumping forward to.

[Cailín]

Oh, Eomer, darling, love of my life...

What a dreadful, horrible day

A terrible sadness is on your wife

And all guinea pigs squeak in dismay


My apologies for the pitiful rhyme, but this tragedy has quite robbed me of any gift for poetry I may have had. I cannot believe this happened, and cannot even think on it now. Who will look after my girls now? Who will discipline Durelin? Who will look after me? And the poor pigs? I must be strong.

---

Let me add to the EW and Wolves discussion (my future son-in-law phantom already managed to evoke some strong reactions, which is always good) that we should attempt to do both find the wolves and guess at the EW’s identity, as Izzy says. This may seem a pretty useless comment, but let us not forget that we have little to go on and our success in lynching wolves (the villager’s task) somewhat depends on us figuring out who the EW is.

The EW will be someone with
- lots of time on her hands (Nogrod used she in the narration, but I seem to remember we shouldn’t think this significant)
- confidence in her ww abilities. She has to live up to quite a legend, after all.
- a slightly twisted personality

This already eliminates half the village, I think (though all here have twisted personalities, and do not try to deny it).

And, another point the phantom made which I wish to highlight again. If I were the EW, I would also choose from among our less famous, vocal and illustrous villagers. The EW has no great interest in finding out who the GW is. So the EW will probably be scrying those she does not really suspect of wizardry and are able to fly under the radar for a long time. At least, she will probably avoid choosing those who the GW is likely to suspect of evil wizardry, because losing a wolf to a nightly scry would be very inconvenient. Yet, this is all speculation. We cannot know what the EW would do, because we do not know her identity.

I am also with my daughter, Lhuna. Let us hunt some wolves today and revenge my husband’s death. For old times’ sake, I will start with accusing my lovely, yet suspicious neighbour Lalaith, whom I would turn instantly if I were the EW.

[Macalaure]

The one disappointing thing about this village is that Nogrod isn't available for me to heavily suspect him on the first Day on nearly non-existent grounds.

Anyway, I wonder whether wolves will act differently in this game than usual. I mean, usually they fall somewhere in the interval between just staying hidden and actively trying to lynch innocents. Here, they could have the additional task to divert our eyes (and the eyes of GW and seer) from the EW. Also, since the wolves can be remade, the loss of one is not as crucial as it is in a regular village. This might be less careful about not being lynched than usual.

Originally Posted by Roa

Your idea to find the EW is flawed. For one thing, that may or may not help us in finding wolves, which ought to be our primary concern. If we can lynch wolves instead of innocents, then not only do we keep the numbers low (and so prevent double kills for a little while) we help the GW with her most vital task, which is to leave us with the best odds possible. The GW will find the EW. It's her, job not ours. We should focus on wolf hunting. It's our best bet for survival.

Why don't we just go for whoever simply appears evil? We benefit from both, finding the EW and lynching wolves. The only thing we don't benefit from is being single-minded.

Originally Posted by Roa

I'm not saying you're on the evil team, but I'm keeping an eye on you.

Now I just talked about wolves maybe acting differently, and then I spot a classic "I'm not suspicious, but I'm suspicious" already on the first page.

Originally Posted by Roa

Or the EW could have counted on people assuming that no one obvious would be picked and so picked the most obvious. We can't know for certain, and so we shouldn't rule anyone out.

The GW is going to search for the EW with his scries. Picking someone as a wolf who could be assumed to be the EW is unwise, because the chance that the person will be turned back into an ordo due to the searching GW is high.


At this point, I'm suspicious of Roa being a wolf, not just because I disagree with her on much, but because the opinions stated by her fit to what a wolf would state, in my opinion. Shasta agreeing with Roa in #36 raised my eyebrow, too. Lhuna (#42) also sided with Roa, but less shadily.

morm, tp, and THE Ka are unlikely to be the EW, because they're too controversial.

Cailin just baffled me by first elaborating on the EW (and narrowing his identity down just a tad too much, I think) and then closing with the suggestion to go for wolves.

Other than that: cluelessness.

[A Little Green]

"Well, well, well. What mess have you gotten into, little ones? Let old Greenie sort this out. I'll see... herb-tea, anyone?"

---

Firstly, I'm quite baffled by the phantom (actually, I'm quite baffled about everything... ).

Originally Posted by tp

You are right of course that the WWs might have been given certain... erm... directions... I don't want to be too specific here... I'd rather not have people start posting their thoughts on the matter (ie giving examples).

I don't get the meaning of this, I'm afraid, and I don't like the way it's phrased. Also, I'm uneasy about the way he seems to be deliberately attention-seeking with all the "if I was the EW" and "please scry me" and

Originally Posted by tp

Aw, too bad. I lost my future father-in-law! Ah, well at least he died knowing his daughter would be happy.

That is if she lives through this.

-comments. I don't think the EW would behave that way though, and I'm not entirely convinced that a wolf would, either, but... There's something weird about him, but I can't say what. (Mac, my son, whatever did you and that Rikae feed him when he was a kid?)

Other than that, I'm inclined to agree with my sister-in-law Izzie that we don't need to make a choice between hunting the EW and hunting the wolves. I don't think we're unable to concentrate on both.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Mac, my son, whatever did you and that Rikae feed him when he was a kid?

Calvados, hard cider, Äbbelwoi, applejack, and Cidre Brut.

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I can't remember who said what exactly (it's late for me), but it seems like the key here is to try to track down the Evil Wizard, because he/she is constant whereas the wolves can change any day. In the couple of games that I have played, a case is usually built against a player over a period of several days, based on voting records and other accumulated evidence and suspicion. Hardly ever is the first person lynched a wolf, which I think demonstrates that a single day is rarely enough to identify a baddie, which is why I think it's better to make a concerted effort to find the EW, than to scramble about every day trying to flush out that day's unique wolf line-up. No, I'm not saying "don't look for wolves." But I do think most of our energy should be directed towards tracking down the EW. In my opinion.

I doubt the Wolves will change that much, but you pretty much sum it up, if you ask me. The discussion between EW and the Wolves is probably quite working, but one thing they most certainly can't do is make plans with player names in them. For the EW to reveal herself to the Wolves or the Wolves to each others is to risk all for plans with names. The whole team loses if one of the Wolves is scried in that situation and that is madness!
So: I think that there might be quite similar discussion between the Baddies as in more conservative game, but only without names - which is a big handicap if you think about it. So, so: We Wolves are just as clueless about who's who as the rest of us (exceptions being the Wizards and the Seer). I'm not even sure if the Wolves are as aware of their "guilt" (whatever that means) as in conservative games. After all sending a kill list is hard if names can't be discussed openly and in the end it's the EW who decides who die. So, so, so: It kinda all points at the EW... :S

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Okay, so we know there aren't connections between the wolves as they probably don't know of each other. So we should look for a different connection...and that'd be between the EW and the wolves. By lynching wolves, we will have better clues to who the EW may be.

Ha, nope! By scrying we get a better idea who the EW is. By killing the Wolves we get very vague ideas. If we scry them they will be able to tell what kind of things they have discussed at Night and that gives many more ideas than by just killing. Of course, a kill isn't a waste of a Wolf, but much more is gained by a successful scry. Actually I'd say that the GW is better at dealing with the Wolves than the village, meaning that a lynch is more effective on the EW than the scry and the other way round with Wolves:
1. Wolf - scry: Baddies lose one player, goodies gain.
2. Wolf - lynch: Baddies lose one player.
3. EW - scry: EW revealed to GW.
4. EW - lynch: EW revealed to all.
1. is better than 2. and 4. is better than 3. Ah, but for heaven's sake, why don't we just search for Baddies and not discuss how we should do it and whether we should search for only some baddies and not others. Come on!

Originally Posted by Cailín

And, another point the phantom made which I wish to highlight again. If I were the EW, I would also choose from among our less famous, vocal and illustrous villagers. The EW has no great interest in finding out who the GW is. So the EW will probably be scrying those she does not really suspect of wizardry and are able to fly under the radar for a long time. At least, she will probably avoid choosing those who the GW is likely to suspect of evil wizardry, because losing a wolf to a nightly scry would be very inconvenient. Yet, this is all speculation. We cannot know what the EW would do, because we do not know her identity.

I would imagine the EW trying to scry (or wasn't it curse) Innocents.
I strongly doubt that the EW has solely chosen her Wolves from "our less famous, vocal and illustrous villagers". Thinking that way is dangerous, dangerous! If I were an EW I'd put a bit from her a bit from there. One or two "famous, vocal and illustrous villagers", one or two less so and one or two of completely not so (if we have any of those around). It is easier to hide for the Wolves if they aren't all non-vocal. However, the Wolves are probably not as actively trying to control the daily discussions as in normal games, because they know so little themselves.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

At this point, I'm suspicious...blahblahblah

Finally, I agree with Mac that we should finally start doing something that couldn't be done on the admin thread before the start of the game.


edit: Xd with Greenie and Mac

[Rikae]

I'm sorry I'm late. I was trapped in a London Plane tree all night long. I lost my bag in that accursed tree too - and now I escape to find Roa's husband, and my sister-in-law's sister-in-law's husband murdered! What a horrible day - I need buttered scones and tea now, not tomorrow!
Macalaure, dear, I wonder if you aren't turning your old animosity toward Nogrod onto my sister, and if so, shame on you. I believe she spoke sensibly -I would have answered The Phantom similarly myself, if I had been here. We should look for wolves. After all, even if we find the EW, she has time to make this a wolf-heavy village before she can be defeated. In fact, a day we attempt to lynch the EW is a day we can't lynch a wolf. It is best if the seer and the GW focus on that, and we do all we can to reduce the number of wolves. It is certainly not a given that we will lynch innocents four days in a row - in fact, that would take quite a streak of bad luck or truly lousy playing on our part! The wolves might not know each other, but they also might - and they might shift from one day to the next, but might also not. Certainly they don't change roles all at once, and though it may be more difficult, I think they can be tracked like any other wolves.
Anyway, although TPs advice and behavior were strange, I don't actually find them suspicious at the moment. I do find some of morm's words somewhat disquieting, though. To find a statement about this game's confusing rules suspicious is ill-founded. Frankly, the possibilities make my head hurt, too. Not only this, but I find his way of narrowing the field of possible wolves to be bad advice of the sneaky sort. Not that I think this sort of speculation is a valid way of finding wolves, but if I were the EW, I would choose players I felt were good survivors. After all, the EW can't advise the wolves during the day, not even in code (I doubt very highly she would reveal herself to them) so they are on their own to some extent. Besides, this game has so many strong players, such players don't stand out as they normally would, so there is little reason for the EW to avoid choosing them.
Also, if I were the EW, I would not scry you, son, simply because I don't want to spoil you.

EDIT: X'd with Mac and Volo

[Nogrod]

A wizard may scry the same person every Night if she so wishes.

[Cailín]

I strongly doubt that the EW has solely chosen her Wolves from "our less famous, vocal and illustrous villagers". Thinking that way is dangerous, dangerous!

Dangerous? Perhaps. If I were the Evil Wizard, I would choose those players who are unlikely to be scried by the Good Wizard. And if I were the Good Wizard, I would scry those people whom I suspect of Evil Wizardry. I am merely making an attempt to define each group.

My List of Wolves

Lalaith: The perfect wolf. I have always said it.

Izzy: Flies under the radar in a charming, yet lethal submarine manner. In a village as this, it’s an important skill.

Aganzir: Clever. Excellent survivor.

Cailín: Beloved by all, unlikely to get lynched. Yea, I’d choose me.

Kitanna: Another good survivor, not too controversial and may be overlooked by the GW.

Kath: A grizzled werewolf veteran. She could lead a team to victory without getting much attention.

Legate: Sensible, matter-of-fact. Not very lynchable.

Eonwe: New to werewolves. Will probably not be lynched. On the other hand, now the phantom has mentioned the village will have already lost if he’s the evil wizard, he will probably be dead by tomorrow.

Volo: Loud, vocal, but not too controversial and therefore well-liked.

Mormegil: Will undoubtedly not survive till the end, but will live long enough to seriously damage his opponents.

Lhuna: A very unwilling wolf, but a good one nonetheless.

My List of non-Wolves

Lommy: Too popular. She will probably die being scried by two wizards at once, if she’s not a wizard herself.

TP: Too controversial. Too confident. A wizard wants to rule.

Diamond18: Will have offended too many players by Day4 to ever stay alive.

Macalaure: A likely wizard candidate.

Rikae: Too argumentative. Will make enemies. Enemies with pitchforks.

Roa_Aoife: See Rikae. It’s a family thing.

Nilp: Too unpredictable. Hazardous and Tom Bombadil-esque with power.

Brinniel: Dies too easily.

Durelin: Too argumentative and unpredictable.

The Others

Nerwen: Quite argumentative. Could go either way.

The KA, Gwathagor, Sally, McCaber: Not familiar with these players.

Shasta: is somewhat like Brinniel, yet he may have played more games since I formed this impression of him, and may have altered his style.

A Little Green: Will find some way to become suspicious.

Celuien: Would make an excellent wolf according to my terms, but has always functioned much better as an innocent.


No doubt some among you will find this list suspicious and controversial (probably just by virtue of being a list, which I know some of you hate). But it is what I would have done were I a wizard (which I'm not )

[mormegil]

++Brinniel

I'm not sure when I'll be around and I'll never really be caught up this day so let's call it a hunch, shall we.

[Kitanna]

Commenting as I read...

Morm~On to wolves, I don't think the EW would pick those who are more obvious, so to speak. I doubt the phantom would be picked at this stage but he could honestly be the EW, though I doubt that.

Or maybe the EW anticipates the village thinking like that and has chosen the most obvious to be wolves. A sneaky and competent EW could pull it off.

Morm~I take statements like this as fairly suspicous comments, all but the bolded one most of all. I don't know why they just don't sit well with me. It always makes me think they are trying to distance themselves with nightly activity.

This is in regards to one of Brinn's posts, a standard opening day post as far as I see. I'm just looking to better understand why you feel this way Morm.

Roa~I'm not saying that the EW isn't important. Obviously both wizards are fundamentally important to the game. (That's why it's Dueling Wizards.) However, I don't think finding her is as "key" as you think it is. Keeping the wolf population low should be our first priority.

But isn't the best way to do that giving the EW the ax early? Though I must say it is more likely we'd catch a wolf early on rather than the EW.

Lhuna~I'm siding with Roa that it is more important for us to find the wolves than the EW.

Cailin~ Let me add to the EW and Wolves discussion (my future son-in-law phantom already managed to evoke some strong reactions, which is always good) that we should attempt to do both find the wolves and guess at the EW’s identity

Aye. Concentrating too hard upon finding one or the other is only going to harm the village. It'll be easier to peg a wolf simply because there's multiple wolves and only one EW.

It's possible to even lynch a wolf today. It's even possible to figure out the EW, but in a village this size it'll be a miracle. The problem with Day 1 is we're pretty blind until Day 2. The problem with all days this time is that wolves can become ordos and a wolf one night could be scried and be good the next after gaining heavy suspicion.

Calin~Kitanna: Another good survivor, not too controversial and may be overlooked by the GW.

If only that was true.

Now I wonder about others on Cailin's suspected wolf and innocent list. Putting out a list such as that could give the EW ideas. "Well, these players are going to be suspected innocent for a while, I should get at least one of them on my side." Given the complex nature of this game, I'd not relay on lists like that. It's often better to read between the lines here. Or at least that is how I see it.

[Thinlómien]

Oh, Sally dear, I'm here now, safe and sound. I just had some problems with my birds, the strange blackbird makes them anxious. The penguins don't like it at all, I daresay. But your dad and your sister... I don't know. Kath last visited us yesterday, as you know, and I haven't seen her after that... And as for my husband, the last time I saw him, he was making some sort of sandwiches. I do hope that they turn up soon. They're alive - as far as I know - unlike some. I'm so sorry and shocked to see our venerable judge and the brave husband of my sister-in-law die, but we must not dwell on that grief any longer, but focus on the horrors at hand.

In the great whether to find the EW or the wolves debate, I'm inclined to side with Mrs Roa and the others agreeing with her. Our primary duty is to find the wolves. If we find the EW, it's good, but it's not what we should be precisely aiming at. So, in my opinion, we should concentrate on finding wolves, but be aware of EWish vibes as well, and we should primarily lynch wolves, but if someone looks more like EW than anyone looks like a wolf, we should go on and vote him. Like Aunt Izzie and my dear big brother Mac said, there really is no contradiction here. I think it's more a question of priorities.

I kind of wanted to be a nasty mother-in-law, but Brinniel's words make sense. I think she brought up one of the most fundamental points about looking for wolves and EW here:

Originally Posted by Brinn

Okay, so we know there aren't connections between the wolves as they probably don't know of each other. So we should look for a different connection...and that'd be between the EW and the wolves. By lynching wolves, we will have better clues to who the EW may be.

Even if it may be a little, we may find the EW (almost typed "BW" ) by looking at how people have treated the dead wolves and who have they been.

This rather unchaste young girl, Aganzir, doesn't quite sit right with me. To be honest, something in her cheery and flirty manner annoys me. (I wonder if it's because I can imagine what sort of extremely irritating expression characteristic to her she is having when smirking behind her laptotp and typing. ) Normally, when she grabs my attention this way, she's innocent (she's more careful as a wolf, I think), but now my gut feeling tells me that might not be so. I'm keeping an eye on her.

THE Ka seems a bit too confused to be a wizard, or a wolf either. But one should not forget how treacherous she can be...

I think tp does not look partciularly suspicious. I think he's being his own baffling self trying to give a rather intimidating and smart impression... And I think he's just being intentionally pessimistic, whatever purpose that is supposed to serve. It could be to make the evil team too confident, it could be to make the goodies lose motivation or be scared or just to amuse himself. Whatever he says should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Morm's attitude makes me think he's probably innocent. But of course I cannot be sure.

Originally Posted by Gwath

I think it's better to make a concerted effort to find the EW, than to scramble about every day trying to flush out that day's unique wolf line-up.

That is a futile point, as the wolf line-up doesn't really change that much...

Volo makes sense here:

Originally Posted by Volo

1. Wolf - scry: Baddies lose one player, goodies gain.
2. Wolf - lynch: Baddies lose one player.
3. EW - scry: EW revealed to GW.
4. EW - lynch: EW revealed to all.

Yet I'm reluctant to follow this idea. The GW should be allowed to do whatever she pleases, and if we start hunting the EW, she is forced to go after the wolves. Besides, there's just one EW but at least three wolves, so finding a wolf would be statictically easier for a dumb mob.

Lastly, I've been looking at the village map and it makes me suspicios of Nerwen and Cailín. I cannot trust anyone who breeds hairless pink guinea pigs or anyone who has a patch for "decent wolves" (like I first read). *would add some nasty smiley if hadn't passed the limit already*


edit: xed with Cailín, morm and Kit

[A Little Green]

Did anyone else wonder at this?

Originally Posted by Volo

We Wolves are just as clueless about who's who as the rest of us (exceptions being the Wizards and the Seer).

(I accidentally posted this as Lommy and deleted it, in case someone saw it and wondered.)

[Cailín]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Did anyone else wonder at this? (I accidentally posted this as Lommy and deleted it, in case someone saw it and wondered.)

I had not noticed but I doubt it is anything but a typo. If anything, it makes Volo look more innocent, because werewolves would be more careful to avoid mistakes such as that.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Volo

1. Wolf - scry: Baddies lose one player, goodies gain.
2. Wolf - lynch: Baddies lose one player.
3. EW - scry: EW revealed to GW.
4. EW - lynch: EW revealed to all.
1. is better than 2. and 4. is better than 3. Ah, but for heaven's sake, why don't we just search for Baddies and not discuss how we should do it and whether we should search for only some baddies and not others. Come on!

Exactly my opinion, especially the latter part.

Originally Posted by Rikae

After all, even if we find the EW, she has time to make this a wolf-heavy village before she can be defeated.

I might risk sleeping on the couch by this, but I have to disagree with you, my love. If by the time the EW can finally be defeated we still haven't found him, we find ourselves in a situation that is difficult to describe in family-friendly terms.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Did anyone else wonder at this?

I'm not sure what's worse: Volo making a statement that can be read as a wolf slip (but I remember an ancestor of him making a wolf slip while being innocent, too ), or A Little Green pointing out the quote - without any opinion of her own - in order to have the mob feast on it while keeping her own hands clean.

[Celuien]

And so ye candle maker arrives late... there's a new invention I've been working on - a candle that burns at both ends. Not quite perfected yet, but eventually I think it will work. And already so much to read. Which I haven't read. But will after adding a few rambling thoughts to the discussion.

At this point, I think our best chances as a village lie with the scrying and seering. The usual daytime teamwork patterns can't be counted upon as a way to look for evil since there's no way to know if the wolves know each other's identities - and I would doubt that at this early point that they would as there's too much chance of flux from one side to the other. By the same token, it's high unlikely that they know the EW's identity. And other sneaky behaviors can't even be counted on because the wolves are perfectly replaceable while the village is still this large, and for all we know might be out there as cannon fodder to distract and confuse the search for the EW, who's really the one that has to be discovered to stabilize the werewolf population flux and make it possible for the village to be victorious.

I guess there's one thing, though. I'm not going to go by werewolf lore too much of who makes a good what because I think it has distracted my ancestors too much in the past... and I think that there has been a long enough gap between my family's witnessing werewolf infestations to make that possible this time.

[THE Ka]

OKay, back for a little bit. Don't keep your hopes up, I'll be gone for the next few hours today with some freetime inbetween, though I'll be here before the deadline.

Originally Posted by Isabel

If a wolf is turned to an ordo, what reason would they have to keep whatever information they learned a secret? The same for an ordo>gifted>ordo>wolf?

Don't count me anywhere close to an 'expert' (and I repeat, don't... first time playing DW), but the reason I can see is fear of other wolves you don't yet know about attacking you that Night. Granted at that time the EW hasn't settled on letting all wolves know one another, just a few for strategic purposes. (If that happens, well great for us! Though, I don't think the EW would blunder that much).

Originally Posted by Lommy

Besides, there's just one EW but at least three wolves, so finding a wolf would be statictically easier for a dumb mob.

No offense taken, I'd rather hunt a wolf than end up dead or with any more wolves.

As well then, an EW would probably be more than delighted if we went on a wild chase after them with little to no knowledge, and left them to busily add to their werewolf collection in the meantime. Wolves on the other hand, even if they are not certain whom their fellows are, would probably 'join in' anyways for safety, with us being too concerned about how and whom the EW is.
So if anything, finding someone of the others is better than none.

That's all I can think of for now, hopefully I'll have time later to read more posts. Ta ta for now.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

My poor father! And my poor... erm... whoever the man was

Sally, thank you for your kind, albeit a little bloodthirsty at first, words. Go and comfort your aunt, I am fine now, and I will voice my opinions among the other villagers... (or should I say: family-members...)

Some comments made on the way to different posts that caught my eye, sorry for it being so long and somewhat badly arranged (and maybe difficult to read for the quotes), but that's just how I went when reading, and the size of the village... Just for now, here we go:

Originally Posted by mormegil

I take statements like this as fairly suspicous comments, all but the bolded one most of all. I don't know why they just don't sit well with me. It always makes me think they are trying to distance themselves with nightly activity.

You mean, trying to distance themselves from nightly activity? If this is so, I don't think so... simply a comment and nothing more.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Or the EW could have counted on people assuming that no one obvious would be picked and so picked the most obvious. We can't know for certain, and so we shouldn't rule anyone out.

Quite.

Originally Posted by mormegil

No, we can't no for certain can we? However, I consider playing the odds the best bet at this stage of the game. If I were the EW, well I would pick...well there's something I must do but I will be back.

I think this doesn't have as big value as you make it seem. The village is too large, the options are too many, peoples' opinions are too different (a Wizard might have picked anybody), although of course yes, such things may be helpful, but they might prove all too tricky if we for example tried to discern whether a person we suspect is a Wolf based on that. "I suspect X, but in fact, I don't think the EW would've picked him, so I say let him go." That would be certainly the worst thing to do with such knowledge. But besides, and we already saw Cailín do that, why not.

Originally Posted by THE Ka

Sorry to sound simple, but if I remember someone saying correctly that both the GW and EW control the actions of their servants, and can overide any decision, action, hidden message and their natures in the game as well. I understand that it makes sense to keep all of your ducks in a row and use them in good time, but why would someone in such a position be so nervous about whom they relate with, if they are the only ones who can talk with them? The seer is the only possibility of ultimately figuring out the identity of anyone, and obviously would be lucky to bag a werewolf, let alone their leader (or, at least figure out who's their fellow gifted).

Like someone before, I am not sure what is meant by this. But simply, concerning this topic: I think the EW would not tell the Wolves who she is, and she could eventually tell them who the other Wolves are, but with some tactic planning - to which size, I can't tell. Well who knows.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

The reason the EW may not want the wolves to know her identity is because if the GW scries a werewolf, that wolf imediately changes sides and becomes an ordo. More importantly, an ordo who knows the identity of the EW and can share it with the village. Each wizard wants to protect their own identity sso that they can challenge the other wizard on their own terms, ie. when the conditions are in favor of their respective teams. So the EW is hesitant to the wolves any information.

Well, quite.

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I can't remember who said what exactly (it's late for me), but it seems like the key here is to try to track down the Evil Wizard, because he/she is constant whereas the wolves can change any day. In the couple of games that I have played, a case is usually built against a player over a period of several days, based on voting records and other accumulated evidence and suspicion. Hardly ever is the first person lynched a wolf, which I think demonstrates that a single day is rarely enough to identify a baddie, which is why I think it's better to make a concerted effort to find the EW, than to scramble about every day trying to flush out that day's unique wolf line-up. No, I'm not saying "don't look for wolves." But I do think most of our energy should be directed towards tracking down the EW. In my opinion.

Not sure about this. I think the wolves are somewhat more important to take care of, but...

Originally Posted by mum Roa

I'm not saying that the EW isn't important. Obviously both wizards are fundamentally important to the game. (That's why it's Dueling Wizards.) However, I don't think finding her is as "key" as you think it is. Keeping the wolf population low should be our first priority.

Yes, the wolves are the most important thing. But in any case, if one suspects a person for being a Wolf, or the EW, simply, he should go for it. It does not matter in the end - baddie is a baddie.

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Why must it be a choice of either focusing on the wolves, or focusing on the EW? Can we not multi-task? The GW is perhaps better equiped at finding the EW, yet there is no crime in helping her out.

That's what I thought, summing it up quite nicely.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Firstly, I'm quite baffled by the phantom (actually, I'm quite baffled about everything...). I don't get the meaning of this, I'm afraid, and I don't like the way it's phrased. Also, I'm uneasy about the way he seems to be deliberately attention-seeking with all the "if I was the EW" and "please scry me" and -comments. I don't think the EW would behave that way though, and I'm not entirely convinced that a wolf would, either, but... There's something weird about him, but I can't say what. (Mac, my son, whatever did you and that Rikae feed him when he was a kid?)

I am not sure about tp. If you ask what they fed him, I would guess they fed him cobblers - but that's (fortunately) impossible. By the way, let me add a corresponding thought.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Anyway, I wonder whether wolves will act differently in this game than usual. I mean, usually they fall somewhere in the interval between just staying hidden and actively trying to lynch innocents. Here, they could have the additional task to divert our eyes (and the eyes of GW and seer) from the EW. Also, since the wolves can be remade, the loss of one is not as crucial as it is in a regular village. This might be less careful about not being lynched than usual.

Even though someone mentioned the possibility of Wolves given suicidal tasks here, it is still a loss for the EW if a wolf is lynched; she cannot win that way. She wins by getting huuuundreds (okay, maybe not as much. Just huundreds) of wolves here (of course, she can win by delaying... but by delaying, the possibility of a scry on her rises).

As for phantom, I think he is just "showing off" and trying to really be scried by the Wizards because he wants to enjoy it - in this I'd believe him saying his honest feelings

Originally Posted by Volo

I strongly doubt that the EW has solely chosen her Wolves from "our less famous, vocal and illustrous villagers". Thinking that way is dangerous, dangerous! If I were an EW I'd put a bit from her a bit from there. One or two "famous, vocal and illustrous villagers", one or two less so and one or two of completely not so (if we have any of those around).

Good point, however then as the Wizards sent a list, it may happen that let's say there were three "famous etc" villagers, and three "normal" etc. and it ended up being picked that there are three "famous", you get what I mean? But that's just to mention this option.

By the way, Volo's points (like that list 1.2.3.4. of his) make sense, however for some reason I have the feeling that he's not being himself.

Originally Posted by Cailín

I had not noticed but I doubt it is anything but a typo. If anything, it makes Volo look more innocent, because werewolves would be more careful to avoid mistakes such as that.

I also feel to not giving it any value. However as for seeing him more innocent because of that, I would not think so, as he may have been given a task, bah, whatever... I simply think it makes no sense to give any value to it.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I'm not sure what's worse: Volo making a statement that can be read as a wolf slip (but I remember an ancestor of him making a wolf slip while being innocent, too), or A Little Green pointing out the quote - without any opinion of her own - in order to have the mob feast on it while keeping her own hands clean.

I also thought similarly.

All in all - I like Mac, I feel good about Lommy... and maybe even about Aganzir (although, you'd better stay away from my girlfriend, okay? If you have any problems, it's no longer my concern! ! ) I don't like Volo, somewhat I am aware of Greenie and of Gwath, but then I know it may be a mistake... although the last time he was... hmph. I don't know what to think about phantom... though I would think he's ordo... anyway, there's so many people I can't name them all.

EDIT: x-ed with Cel and Ka

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Brinn

Correction, I believe the term is warlock...not wizard.

In Finnish there's just one word for a male witch. :P

Originally Posted by phantom

In other villages the WWs work together and know their fellow pack members. In this village... well, honestly, there's no way the EW told all his WWs who he is and who their fellows are. That would be too risky.

The way this is written is odd. It looks like formulated, something you have decided to say beforehand. And I wouldn't be so early wholly ruling out the possibility that the wolves know one another and/or the EW.

Originally Posted by sally

"After all, I'm not the one dating my cousin."

And I am not the one cheating on his girlfriend, or the one making out in public with someone you knew had a girlfriend.

Originally Posted by Shasta

"Or, child, I do wonder about that... ruffian you choose to cavort with-"

Ah but I have no worries about him. I know what he was doing for the most part of last night. ...At least I suppose it was him and not Gwath. They look so same I can't always tell.

Originally Posted by morm

I take statements like this as fairly suspicous comments, all but the bolded one most of all. I don't know why they just don't sit well with me. It always makes me think they are trying to distance themselves with nightly activity.

I often do the same, ie try to find wolves based on how they say things, but I don't really think saying that makes Brinn more suspicious. Mainly because I think so, too.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Okay, so we know there aren't connections between the wolves as they probably don't know of each other.

How come you're so sure?
This looks awfully much like a Brinn-wolf who doesn't know her fellows and states the fact as her opinion as she's afraid she might slip it later.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Now I wonder about others on Cailin's suspected wolf and innocent list. Putting out a list such as that could give the EW ideas.

And if I say "Nerwen is the good wizard and the gifteds are Nilp, Kath and Eönwë!" it will give the EW ideas and she will go after them?
Quite honestly, I assume the wizards have played enough so that they have at least some kind of ideas about what the players are like.

The only suspicious thing I can see about Cailín's list is that making it is an easy way to gain allies by being nice to people. Like, I have never played with her before yet she called me clever - therefore she must be innocent too, since she sees I'm making sense!

Originally Posted by Greenie

Did anyone else wonder at this?

I think it looked like an example of what wolf talk would be like, but that "the rest of us" leaves me baffled.
But I wouldn't count it as an argument neither for nor against Volo yet.

**

Innocent
morm. He makes sense and looks innocent.
Isabell. I agree with her and she looks honest.

Guilty
Ka, because she's always evil.
phantom. In truth he's the EW, and is just bluffing. Ok, well, he looks like he has deliberately chosen the way he plays, and to choose that makes people look unnatural and insincere.
I don't know about sally, but she makes me feel uneasy. Usually she's crazier and somehow less careful.
I don't like Gwath either. The way he says we should be looking for the EW rather than wolves is suspicious. There are others who have said quite the same, but Gwath just makes it look like he were a wolf and trying to distract attention away from himself.

Originally Posted by Gwath

Hardly ever is the first person lynched a wolf, which I think demonstrates that a single day is rarely enough to identify a baddie, which is why I think it's better to make a concerted effort to find the EW

And if an innocent is lynched today and the EW curses a new wolf next night, the wolves will get two kills, and that's certainly what they are aiming at. So wolves shouldn't be looked for?
Brinniel. This is a gut feeling, but she looks a bit too dishonest and a bit too careful.

edit: xed with Celuien, Ka & Legate

[satansaloser2005]

It's good to see more people talking, and though it's a fairly typical first day it's shaping up fairly nicely. Sadly, I took an afterNoon nap (aka I slept in) so I don't have time to read the posts as thoroughly as I'd like. For now, though, the player that I remember bothering me the most is Phantom. Now, Legate, I know he's a good business partner and all, but for today at least my vote must go towards him.

++Phantom



(I'll probably be out for the rest of the Day, unless I manage to snag some wireless over break, so provided that I'm not lynched or night killed or something I'll see you all toMorrow)

Oh, and Noggie, thanks for clearing that up!

[Kath]

*hugs Brinn* ... and beats morm over the head for voting for my loved one!

I'll admit it, this is a checking in post, I have been charged with sorting dinner out so I won't be around for a bit. You'll have me all evening though!

Just something though as I did skim the posts on my way through. I understand what phantom was saying about needing to focus on getting the EW, but I think we're more likely to catch wolves than wizards and we do need to ensure we get some of those as well or we're going up to scary numbers of deaths in a 48 hour period and lessening our chances statistics wise.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

*whispers to himself, looking at Aganzir* Now I recall why I liked her... Oh my. She makes sense. She was always clever. Only she had to become such a hateful person...

Anyway, I guess I'm going to be off for a short while... but will return soon to see what's happened.

Sally, my dear, feel free to vote for Phantom, I am not going to blame you for that... although I probably won't stand by you in this decision, you must understand he has been my friend and business partner for too long... not to mention he is my cousin (well who isn't, right... apart from you maybe...). But as I said, at least for now, I won't even suspect him that much. I think he has always been like that...

Will be back.

[Roa_Aoife]

Quick post before I head off to work- I'll be back on my lunch break to vote.

Originally Posted by Mac

Now I just talked about wolves maybe acting differently, and then I spot a classic "I'm not suspicious, but I'm suspicious" already on the first page.

It was only his first post. Even I'm not that good at wolf spotting. I'm suspicious of everyone. I'm extra suspicious of phantom, but I'm not certain. Or at least I wasn't after one post. Is that a better way to state it?

Originally Posted by Mac

The GW is going to search for the EW with his scries. Picking someone as a wolf who could be assumed to be the EW is unwise, because the chance that the person will be turned back into an ordo due to the searching GW is high.

Every EW will work differently. The EW could have picked someone who was high profile as a smokescreen to hide behind. Look, the second we start ruling people out, those are the people the EW will pick. Trust me on that one- I was there. Let's not make the choice any easier for her. Trying to avoid the GW was only one of concerns, and it was more from the fact that I'd be discovered by him if we scried the same person at the same time. He was theonly one who could stop me, and so he was the only one I feared. That is no longer a problem.

When I was the EW, I picked wolves from all over. I had high profile wolves, I had under-the-radar wolves, I had wolves that I planned to sacrifice. I'm trying to share what I learned from my experience with the village. Never rule anyone out as a potential wolf, and no one except the GW is a known innocent until they're dead.

Originally Posted by Cailin

Rikae: Too argumentative. Will make enemies. Enemies with pitchforks.

Roa_Aoife: See Rikae. It’s a family thing.

Again, I don't think anyone should be ruled out, but this made me giggle all over.

Originally Posted by Cailin

At this point, I think our best chances as a village lie with the scrying and seering. The usual daytime teamwork patterns can't be counted upon as a way to look for evil since there's no way to know if the wolves know each other's identities - and I would doubt that at this early point that they would as there's too much chance of flux from one side to the other. By the same token, it's high unlikely that they know the EW's identity. And other sneaky behaviors can't even be counted on because the wolves are perfectly replaceable while the village is still this large, and for all we know might be out there as cannon fodder to distract and confuse the search for the EW, who's really the one that has to be discovered to stabilize the werewolf population flux and make it possible for the village to be victorious.

I find any post that says, "Oh we can't find the werewolves, best not to try" to be not only flawed but suspicious. Wolves still lie. They still misdirect. They are still trying to kill the village. Cailin's post here echoes the post by phantom (not his first) that really sounded off my warning bells. Why, exactly, should the wolves being replaceable decrease the usual sneaky behaviors?

Tight now, I'm a little suspicious of the wafflers, "I think this, but I also think the opposite," but I haven't seen enough yet to form any hard opinions, so I'm not pointing them out (yet.)

Originally Posted by phantom

Bah! Why bother trying to find Wolves?

There aren't any!

At least, not what any of us would call Wolves.

In other villages the WWs work together and know their fellow pack members. In this village... well, honestly, there's no way the EW told all his WWs who he is and who their fellows are. That would be too risky.

Thus a "Wolf" is simply an Ordo who counts as a WW in the tally.

This post is both unhelpful and deeply flawed. It's basically telling us to ignore all methods for hunting wolves, even the ones that have nothing to do with connections, by suggesting that they won't work. This is misinformation, a common tactic used by werewolves. At least high profile illustrious werewolves.

I have to go (I'm late already) but I find the people who keep ruling out the "high profile" wolves to be suspicious, especially the ones who are conveniently high profile.

Edit: cross posted with legate onward

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I don't like Gwath either. The way he says we should be looking for the EW rather than wolves is suspicious. There are others who have said quite the same, but Gwath just makes it look like he were a wolf and trying to distract attention away from himself.

And if an innocent is lynched today and the EW curses a new wolf next night, the wolves will get two kills, and that's certainly what they are aiming at. So wolves shouldn't be looked for?

I specifically said that I did NOT mean we shouldn't look for wolves. Don't twist my words, dearest sister-in-law to be.

Because I can't be here during the deadline for RL work reasons, so I have to vote now.

++Sally

[Durelin]

Cailin's *if I were a Wizard cause I'm not* list is...odd. It seems like the biggest waste of time yet. Even if the EW thought, as Cailin suggested, that they should pick wolves from "among our less famous, vocal and illustrous villagers"...her list really doesn't follow that, in my opinion. And that's all it is, opinion.

Originally Posted by Ka

Don't count me anywhere close to an 'expert' (and I repeat, don't... first time playing DW), but the reason I can see is fear of other wolves you don't yet know about attacking you that Night. Granted at that time the EW hasn't settled on letting all wolves know one another, just a few for strategic purposes. (If that happens, well great for us! Though, I don't think the EW would blunder that much).

Here's another point - if the EW loses a Wolf, I imagine they'll know about it, and they might set the lost Wolf as their remaining Wolves' target, mightn't they?

Anyway.

Ka seems to be playing up the "never played DW, not really sure what's going on" thing. (I mean, I'm hardly confident with all this, but...) Her posts have been rather boring. I'm used to them being a bit more interesting.

Sally's use of the diminutive 'Durie' makes me cringe. Her ridiculously easy vote for phantom causes considerable discomfort. And I agree with Aganzir that she seems to be playing nicely and carefully. In other words she's boring atm.

But, maybe Roa and phantom are wolves together and just don't know it, cause that would be funnnn.

Aganzir bothers me and I don't know why. For one thing, I don't know how she feels comfortable saying much of anything about Isabel. One post, with in-character banter, repeating a bunch of things already said (basically summarizing the whole Roa v. phantom and discussion proceeding from that), and asking one question, also related to the EW and wolves discussion. Hmm, I will definitely be looking at Isabel more...

Is Aganzir the first to suggest that the phantom is a bluffing-like-crazy EW? (morm mentioned that he thinks the phantom probably wouldn't be picked as a wolf early on but could be the EW, but that hardly strikes the same chord.) Well, doesn't matter if she's first. I just find myself uncomfortable with anyone making that suggestion because it's so...easy. I mean, it's the phantom. It's the phantom who's begging for attention. phantom to Evil Wizard...not much of a stretch.

On the other hand, though, I'm for some reason prepared to believe Cailin would post her 'list o' possible wolf choices' even as the EW...a little. So maybe I'm being stupid (or biased...never trusted my mother)... Certainly I am clueless.

< / rambling >

Edit: Crossed with Gwath and Roa.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

although, you'd better stay away from my girlfriend, okay? If you have any problems, it's no longer my concern!

I'm just happy to see her kill you some night then!

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I specifically said that I did NOT mean we shouldn't look for wolves. Don't twist my words, dearest sister-in-law to be.

Yes you said, but the rest of your post looked like how I interpreted it.

Originally Posted by Durelin

Here's another point - if the EW loses a Wolf, I imagine they'll know about it, and they might set the lost Wolf as their remaining Wolves' target, mightn't they?

Yes. But even then there's a possibility that the ranger's protecting the ex-wolf in question - the GW certainly wouldn't want to lose someone who might know a great deal of the evil team's plans.

Originally Posted by Durelin

For one thing, I don't know how she feels comfortable saying much of anything about Isabel.

To be honest I didn't quite even realise she had just one post, but the way it was written looked innocent to me. Surely you aren't assuming I will think so for the rest of the game?
I think you're pretty much grasping at straws there.

Originally Posted by Durelin

Well, doesn't matter if she's first. I just find myself uncomfortable with anyone making that suggestion because it's so...easy. I mean, it's the phantom. It's the phantom who's begging for attention. phantom to Evil Wizard...not much of a stretch.

I've never played with the phantom before I think. But I tend to think everyone should say what they see, and if he looks like a possible EW I rather say it aloud.

[Macalaure]

Thank you for liking me, Legate, and apologies for not being able to return that sentiment.

I'm aware that I need to be careful not to suspect people solely for agreeing with Roa. However, the way you emphasize her point that we just can't know anything about who the wizard might be or who he could have picked is suspicious to me.

Originally Posted by Legate

I am not sure about tp. If you ask what they fed him, I would guess they fed him cobblers - but that's (fortunately) impossible.

You simply discard an opinion which you do not share (I only guess so, since you don't address tp's points directly) as cobblery? Very hasty, my friend - demagogic even, if one looks at it ill-meaningly. Some elaboration?

Originally Posted by Legate

Even though someone mentioned the possibility of Wolves given suicidal tasks here, it is still a loss for the EW if a wolf is lynched; she cannot win that way.

I didn't say that. Of course it is still a loss, but not as fatal as in a regular village. Are their tasks suicidal? Unlikely. But he can afford to give tasks which are a little more risky. Sacrificing a wolf for the sake of surviving for one more day himself makes absolute sense to him, for example.


Like: Aganzir, Kitanna, phantom, morm

Some like: Volo, Ka, Sally, Isabellkya, Lommy, Durelin

Only a little like: Lhuna, A Little Green

Not very much like: Shasta (shady agreement with Roa), Cailin (really not sure what to make of her list), Legate

No like: Roa (what I said earlier, plus a simple very bad hunch I got from her last post)

Really not sure: Brinniel, Lalaith, Gwath, Rikae, Celuien, Kath

Still asleep: Nilp, Eonwe, Diamond, Nerwen, McCaber.


PS: Roa, you mixed up my quotes and morm's.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

You simply discard an opinion which you do not share (I only guess so, since you don't address tp's points directly) as cobblery? Very hasty, my friend - demagogic even, if one looks at it ill-meaningly. Some elaboration?

Not sure if I got what in particular you, how to call that, accuse me of, so I will explain what I meant by this: I meant that I don't think phantom would be a wolf, but he could as well be a cobbler given his behavior. However, as no cobblers are in this game, he obviously isn't one. Then, as you read my posts later, going along these lines, my conclusion was that he is probably ordo.

Originally Posted by Uncle Mac

I didn't say that. Of course it is still a loss, but not as fatal as in a regular village. Are their tasks suicidal? Unlikely. But he can afford to give tasks which are a little more risky. Sacrificing a wolf for the sake of surviving for one more day himself makes absolute sense to him, for example.

Of course. But the combination of words"they could have the additional task to divert our eyes from the EW" and immediately following "the wolves can be remade, the loss of one is not as crucial as it is in a regular village", obviously conjures in one's mind the idea of a wolf stepping forward into the village's discussion in order to turn the suspicion on himself and not the EW.

[Cailín]

Originally Posted by Durelin

Cailin's *if I were a Wizard cause I'm not* list is...odd. It seems like the biggest waste of time yet. Even if the EW thought, as Cailin suggested, that they should pick wolves from "among our less famous, vocal and illustrous villagers"...her list really doesn't follow that, in my opinion. And that's all it is, opinion.

Of course, it's opinion. If we all pitch in with our opinions then perhaps we shall reach a consensus.

The difference between this WW game and others is that there is a substantially smaller degree of randomness here. When we talk of who would apply to be a wizard, or who a wizard would want as a wolf, or as a gifted, we are dealing with probabilities, however slight.

And on Day 1, when we have almost nothing to do but sift through roleplaying posts and criticise others for not being helpful, I believe it can be worthwhile to speculate.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I think you're pretty much grasping at straws there.

It's clutching. But really, I think you are, too/being defensive. Or maybe you're just frustrated cause you really think I'm an idiot. My argument wasn't just "Isabel's only posted once, Aganzir determines she is innocent, thus Aganzir doesn't look innocent." I didn't take up a whole paragraph just to say that. You make me uncomfortable. I don't know why. Have I played with you before? It shouldn't matter, but...yeah, it probably does.

Edit: Response to Cailin's posty: Uh...reach a consensus? You never reach a consensus in these games, and you never should! Why? Because we're not all on the same side! Also, there is no possible way I am ever compromising. That's what I hate perhaps the most about this game - people always compromising about who to vote for. "Eh, they're not really all that guilty, but it doesn't look like anyone's going to vote for who I really think is guilty, so I'm going to just contribute a useless vote and maybe get lucky."

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Not sure if I got what in particular you, how to call that, accuse me of, so I will explain what I meant by this: I meant that I don't think phantom would be a wolf, but he could as well be a cobbler given his behavior. However, as no cobblers are in this game, he obviously isn't one. Then, as you read my posts later, going along these lines, my conclusion was that he is probably ordo.

What I meant was exactly this "given his behaviour". You say that it is cobblerish. I personally don't think this conclusion is obvious, so I'd like to see your reasons, especially given the fact that it is a very easy way to discredit a person's opinions as a whole (that's what I meant by "demagogic").

Originally Posted by Legate

Of course. But the combination of words"they could have the additional task to divert our eyes from the EW" and immediately following "the wolves can be remade, the loss of one is not as crucial as it is in a regular village", obviously conjures in one's mind the idea of a wolf stepping forward into the village's discussion in order to turn the suspicion on himself and not the EW.

Ah, I see. It was not in my intent to say that, of course.