Subject for the Second film? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 06-02-2008, 06:17 AM

Okay, you want to see evidence of such an intention, or the reverse?

In 2011-12 (Lord of the Rings) and 2013 (Hobbit) the Estate will have the right under US copyright law to cancel and revoke *every* single assignment of copyright JRRT ever made in his lifetime. (No kidding- it's called 'copyright reclamation' and you can look it up). Although it wouldn't apply to the rest of the world, without US film rights no studio would ever undertake such an expensive project.

So wait and see.

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-02-2008, 06:26 AM

My goodness, people, the man has a right to his own private thoughts and life! Please stop playing paparazzi and get back to the topic of this thread. No more second-guessing irrelevant matters that concern only CRT himself and are not the public's business until they become such. Let's give JRRT's family at least a bit of the respect we have for him.

Morthoron · 06-03-2008, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Okay, you want to see evidence of such an intention, or the reverse?

In 2011-12 (Lord of the Rings) and 2013 (Hobbit) the Estate will have the right under US copyright law to cancel and revoke *every* single assignment of copyright JRRT ever made in his lifetime. (No kidding- it's called 'copyright reclamation' and you can look it up). Although it wouldn't apply to the rest of the world, without US film rights no studio would ever undertake such an expensive project.

Yes, I had forgotten that codicil of US copyright law. Paul McCartney has already stated he will exercise his rights under that law to reclaim the US copyrights for the Beatles catalog held by Sony (from Michael Jackson) when they revert in a few years. Can Yoko be far behind?

As far as the 2nd movie, one would think that there will be at least a portion of it devoted to the dwarves who played such a large part in the Hobbit (or perhaps they will just disappear like the elves did after the battle of Helm's Deep in TT). I would suggest that Balin's colony at Moria will get some sort of treatment; after all, they can ressurrect the Balrog from the Weta vaults for some more pyrotechnics (I use the balrog scene in FotR to test the DTS on my surround sound). At least with the Balin character there can be direct continuity from the Hobbit, through the 2nd film and into FotR.

Perhaps the meeting of Gandalf and Balin with Bilbo in the Shire can be a tie-in for the Moria segment.

Olórin the White · 06-06-2008, 03:48 PM

alright. so I've trolled Tolkien forums for a long time now, and have been biding my time to post...but it seems about time to give in.

After reading through this thread I have a couple things to say. First of all, someone commented way back on the first page that many of today's movie goers are too busy to read long 'boring' books when they can just watch the movie and be entertained by good looks and fast moving action. And alas, that is far too common...however I would like to present that there are many exceptions to that, myself included. So often I find in Tolkien communities a steadfast opinion that anyone under the age of 20(ish), who was introduced to Tolkien through the Lord of the Rings films cannot have a true appreciation for what the books really stand for. Now, I'm sure it is not deliberately intended that way, but it is nonetheless the impression that is created.
However, I was introduced to the wonders of Tolkien through the films, and they fascinated me enough to dig a little deeper into the original material. To be fair, I have always been one for good literature over new-fangled entertainment like reality television, cheap movies, and the boorish celebrity news that populates much of our entertainment industry...but that being said, I think some credit must be given to the films for introducing a new generation of readers to the books, even if the percentage of those who really become passionate about Tolkien's writing is small compared to the masses of people who saw the films. That alone must be worth something...
I now love all of Tolkien's work, and while I enjoy the films as well, I do not see them to be of equal stature to the books, which are pure gems. But perhaps I'm just a rarity in that sense...
All I'm trying to say is that the films do deserve some recognition as a gateway to the greater world of Middle Earth in its literary form.

Secondly, about the whole film rights/should parts of the Sil or CoH be made into films/money vs. art issue.
I hope to goodness I never live to see the day that the Silmarillion be made into a film or television series or anything close to that. I think it to be impossible to ever visually capture the intricacies of stories that are not completely fleshed out without completing re-inventing the proverbial wheel. They would no longer be the magical tales we have grown to love and cherish; instead, a film based on the entirety of the Silmarillion would be a rough caricature of what the books is, and a long drawn out 'historical' documentary series would be unbearable to me because there is no way the budget could be big enough to sustain such an immense production at a level of sufficient cinematic quality.
That being said, I am a film student with a specific interest in screenwriting and directing, and I see the possibility of taking a select few of the stories from the Silmarillion and creating great films. I would LOVE to one day be priveleged enough to render the story of Beren and Luthien onto celluloid. I think out of all the tales of the first and second ages it is the most likely to be adaptable to film, WITHOUT compromising the integrity of Tolkien's vision of it. Frankly I think it would make a beautiful piece of cinema. However, I doubt it would ever manage to escape the perversion of the current studio system without being scarred, and as such I wouldn't want myself or any other filmmaker to be limited in their telling of Beren and Luthien in that way. So unless I become fabulously rich at some point in the near future, and am able to independently approach CT (or whoever is in charge of the Tolkien Estate by then) with proof that I would be faithful to the art of that story...or the world ends and the Hollywood studio system is brought down and drastically changed, I very much doubt that I will ever have the opportunity.
And as for the film rights question, I'm just going to leave that alone because it is well beyond my control...however, I will say that I think CT would not be opposed to film adaptations of his father's work if film could be shown to do justice to the books, and that the original material would be created with utmost respect.

And thirdly, to address with this thread is actually about...I suppose what I would wish to see in this 'sequel' movie is the story of Gollum entering Mordor, being tracked by Aragorn and Gandalf...Aragorn's friendship with Gandalf and love for Arwen...Balin would make a great tie-in to LotR...
and I will say that I still have some faith in PJ, especially with del Toro on board. I think he will bring new eyes and perhaps a renewed interest in capturing the essence of the books, thus creating a counter-opinion to PJ's in the writing process. but then again, I'm an optimist for the most part...

Eönwë · 06-08-2008, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olórin the White

So often I find in Tolkien communities a steadfast opinion that anyone under the age of 20(ish), who was introduced to Tolkien through the Lord of the Rings films cannot have a true appreciation for what the books really stand for. Now, I'm sure it is not deliberately intended that way, but it is nonetheless the impression that is created.
However, I was introduced to the wonders of Tolkien through the films, and they fascinated me enough to dig a little deeper into the original material. To be fair, I have always been one for good literature over new-fangled entertainment like reality television, cheap movies, and the boorish celebrity news that populates much of our entertainment industry...but that being said, I think some credit must be given to the films for introducing a new generation of readers to the books, even if the percentage of those who really become passionate about Tolkien's writing is small compared to the masses of people who saw the films. That alone must be worth something...
I now love all of Tolkien's work, and while I enjoy the films as well, I do not see them to be of equal stature to the books, which are pure gems. But perhaps I'm just a rarity in that sense...
All I'm trying to say is that the films do deserve some recognition as a gateway to the greater world of Middle Earth in its literary form.

Yeah, well I agree and disagree.

For the disagreement, I'm under 20 (Actually 14) and I read the books soon after the last film came out. Then I read The Silm, The UT, and BoLT. I'd already ready TH. And I like the books much more (though the EE improves it a lot, except for the Gandalf vs. WK scene- Gandalf's a Maia for Eru's sake). The movies don't even come close to me. And I know other people who feel the same way.

But I agree that they help people read the books, and even though I probably would have read it anyway, the films definitely gave me more enthusiasm to read the books.

Groin Redbeard · 06-08-2008, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But I agree that they help people read the books, and even though I probably would have read it anyway, the films definitely gave me more enthusiasm to read the books.

It was the movies that got me hooked onto the books. I didn't even know what the Lord of the Rings was seven years ago, but when I heard what the FotR movie was all about I went to see it, and I came away from it thinking, "Wow, I got to read the books by this Tolkien guy!" I finished the books in two weeks and couldn't wait for the other two movies to come out.

06-02-2008, 06:17 AM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Okay, you want to see evidence of such an intention, or the reverse? In 2011-12 (Lord of the Rings) and 2013 (Hobbit) the Estate will have the right under US copyright law to cancel and revoke every single assignment of copyright JRRT ever made in his lifetime. (No kidding- it's called 'copyright reclamation' and you can look it up). Although it wouldn't apply to the rest of the world, without US film rights no studio would ever undertake such an expensive project. So wait and see. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

06-02-2008, 06:26 AM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Moderator's note My goodness, people, the man has a right to his own private thoughts and life! Please stop playing paparazzi and get back to the topic of this thread. No more second-guessing irrelevant matters that concern only CRT himself and are not the public's business until they become such. Let's give JRRT's family at least a bit of the respect we have for him. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-06-2008, 03:48 PM	#4
Olórin the White Newly Deceased Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 9	alright. so I've trolled Tolkien forums for a long time now, and have been biding my time to post...but it seems about time to give in. After reading through this thread I have a couple things to say. First of all, someone commented way back on the first page that many of today's movie goers are too busy to read long 'boring' books when they can just watch the movie and be entertained by good looks and fast moving action. And alas, that is far too common...however I would like to present that there are many exceptions to that, myself included. So often I find in Tolkien communities a steadfast opinion that anyone under the age of 20(ish), who was introduced to Tolkien through the Lord of the Rings films cannot have a true appreciation for what the books really stand for. Now, I'm sure it is not deliberately intended that way, but it is nonetheless the impression that is created. However, I was introduced to the wonders of Tolkien through the films, and they fascinated me enough to dig a little deeper into the original material. To be fair, I have always been one for good literature over new-fangled entertainment like reality television, cheap movies, and the boorish celebrity news that populates much of our entertainment industry...but that being said, I think some credit must be given to the films for introducing a new generation of readers to the books, even if the percentage of those who really become passionate about Tolkien's writing is small compared to the masses of people who saw the films. That alone must be worth something... I now love all of Tolkien's work, and while I enjoy the films as well, I do not see them to be of equal stature to the books, which are pure gems. But perhaps I'm just a rarity in that sense... All I'm trying to say is that the films do deserve some recognition as a gateway to the greater world of Middle Earth in its literary form. Secondly, about the whole film rights/should parts of the Sil or CoH be made into films/money vs. art issue. I hope to goodness I never live to see the day that the Silmarillion be made into a film or television series or anything close to that. I think it to be impossible to ever visually capture the intricacies of stories that are not completely fleshed out without completing re-inventing the proverbial wheel. They would no longer be the magical tales we have grown to love and cherish; instead, a film based on the entirety of the Silmarillion would be a rough caricature of what the books is, and a long drawn out 'historical' documentary series would be unbearable to me because there is no way the budget could be big enough to sustain such an immense production at a level of sufficient cinematic quality. That being said, I am a film student with a specific interest in screenwriting and directing, and I see the possibility of taking a select few of the stories from the Silmarillion and creating great films. I would LOVE to one day be priveleged enough to render the story of Beren and Luthien onto celluloid. I think out of all the tales of the first and second ages it is the most likely to be adaptable to film, WITHOUT compromising the integrity of Tolkien's vision of it. Frankly I think it would make a beautiful piece of cinema. However, I doubt it would ever manage to escape the perversion of the current studio system without being scarred, and as such I wouldn't want myself or any other filmmaker to be limited in their telling of Beren and Luthien in that way. So unless I become fabulously rich at some point in the near future, and am able to independently approach CT (or whoever is in charge of the Tolkien Estate by then) with proof that I would be faithful to the art of that story...or the world ends and the Hollywood studio system is brought down and drastically changed, I very much doubt that I will ever have the opportunity. And as for the film rights question, I'm just going to leave that alone because it is well beyond my control...however, I will say that I think CT would not be opposed to film adaptations of his father's work if film could be shown to do justice to the books, and that the original material would be created with utmost respect. And thirdly, to address with this thread is actually about...I suppose what I would wish to see in this 'sequel' movie is the story of Gollum entering Mordor, being tracked by Aragorn and Gandalf...Aragorn's friendship with Gandalf and love for Arwen...Balin would make a great tie-in to LotR... and I will say that I still have some faith in PJ, especially with del Toro on board. I think he will bring new eyes and perhaps a renewed interest in capturing the essence of the books, thus creating a counter-opinion to PJ's in the writing process. but then again, I'm an optimist for the most part... Last edited by Olórin the White; 06-06-2008 at 03:55 PM.