Stereotypes

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I'm also inclined to think that pre-Tolkien elves are smaller and weaker, but that may only be the subversive effect of the Enlightenment tainting my soul. Now that I think about it, I believe that in the oldest elf-tales, the elves are rather tall and bright-eyed, like Tolkien's, but they seem to get smaller and more tame the farther we get from the middle-ages. So, at least in that case, it seems that Tolkien reverted to the oldest stereotypes in a kind of stereotype-revolution.

I'd say so. Read Tolkien's On Fairy-Stories. He somewhat explains there his aversion towards "stereotypes" of fairy-tale elves (or fairies, both of these terms being exchangeable for one another in his case) being of diminutive size and having wings and such.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Amusingly, Tolkien said in an interview with the BBC that he'd constructed Khuzdul like a Semitic language. If anything, a dwarf might sound more like Topol in Fiddler on the Roof. Oyveh!

Oh my, I didn't know - but now thinking of it, if I imagine the Dwarves in Bag End singing their song in the manner of let's say "Hinne ma tov", or "Avinu malkeynu" (that could especially fit singing the song in Beorn's house), it might sound really good and fitting - the chorus of the deep thirteen voices...

I would finish with a question - what do you think about Orcs? (Or goblins, or whatever...) I am not aware of the concept of Orcs in the mythology before Tolkien, of course they probably were up to no good, whatever they were, but simply: Were they like that, or in which aspects were they like that? I.e. to which point is Tolkien constituing a new, set view of Orcs, against the concept that was before (if there was any)? I mean, since Tolkien, Orcs are portrayed in every fantasy book (movie, computer game...) like they are, you say "Orc" and everyone knows what to imagine under it - and they imagine more or less the same, at least concerning the basical traits. With goblins, it's somewhat different, but Orcs as Orcs seem to be more or less the same everywhere. What is Tolkien's invention about them, and what was here before?

[Kuruharan]

The idea of elves as a highly developed culture originates in Middle-Earth for sure.
Gwathagor

To the best of my knowledge this is correct and I think the same could be said for dwarves as well…although if I’m wrong about that somebody please correct me.

I know that Terry Brooks chose to give his Dwarves an intense aversion to anything resembling underground tunnels and caves, which I thought was an interesting contrast with Tolkien-dwarves.
Gwathagor

I think the contrast with Tolkien was deliberate on Brooks’ part, although I’m not terribly familiar with those stories and might be mistaken about that too.

I believe the whole 'party-hearty' dwarf stereotype arose from various roleplaying games (like Dungeons and Dragons, for instance). This is partly attributable to Tolkien, but only in the sense that he borrowed names from Norse (Icelandic) lore, and there is a whole mythos of the dvergar in the Poetic Eddas. Hence, many roleplayers associated dwarves with those hard-living marauders of old, Vikings (and any stereotypical drawing of a dwarf warrior certainly has the appearance of the commonly misconceived picture of a Viking -- complete with the horned helmets which no one actually wore). And so, the idea of a mead-drinking, beserker dwarf is perpetuated.
Morthoron

I think you are quite right here. A stereotype based on another mythical stereotype.

Currently, of course, every roleplaying dwarf seems to have picked up a heavy Scottish brogue as well as the drunken, belching boisterousness of Gimli from the LotR films.
Morthoron

Also true. That was another thing I thought about; how that specific stereotype made it into the Lord of the Rings movies.

Amusingly, Tolkien said in an interview with the BBC that he'd constructed Khuzdul like a Semitic language. If anything, a dwarf might sound more like Topol in Fiddler on the Roof. Oyveh!
Morthoron

Here’s something to ponder…instead of the usual conceptualization of dwarves in a Norse/Scotch motif…how about a culture that in some ways look like its more from ancient Babylon/Assyria.

Think about it.

For example, the Norse names were adopted as a form of “cover” (if you will) from the mannish cultures around the dwarves…

Actually, there is much elvish aloofness and callousness in the Silmarillion. One only has to read passages wherein Caranthir, Celegorm or Curufin speak to get the sense that these were in no way kindly or well-meaning elves. Eol was another quintessentially malevolent elf, and let's not forget Saeros or Thingol (whose rudeness actually got them killed). Even Feanor, for all his brilliance, was arrogant and malign (slaughtering the well-meaning Teleri and stealing their ships was certainly not the work of a mirthful and benevolent elf).
Morthoron

All of this is quite true (although I’m not sure I’d classify Eol as malevolent, exactly, but that’s a discussion for another time)…however it seems to me that later fantasy has heightened it to an extreme…a superciliousness to the point of foppishness in some cases. However, I must concede that may be attributable to the rather lacking qualities or other intentions of the authors in question.

to which point is Tolkien constituing a new, set view of Orcs, against the concept that was before (if there was any)? I mean, since Tolkien, Orcs are portrayed in every fantasy book (movie, computer game...) like they are, you say "Orc" and everyone knows what to imagine under it - and they imagine more or less the same, at least concerning the basical traits. With goblins, it's somewhat different, but Orcs as Orcs seem to be more or less the same everywhere. What is Tolkien's invention about them, and what was here before?
Legate

*cheats and looks on wikipedia*

*shame*

Apparently orcs as we commonly know them are Tolkien’s invention…but returning to my original line of thinking that began this thread, I have to ask myself how closely subsequent concepts of orcs follow Tolkien’s original idea (not because I think later works must slavishly follow Tolkien’s concept but because I think that the later concepts are not really as close to Tolkien’s original as might be commonly supposed).

For instance, does your mental image of orcs look like this? Mine always sort of did I'm afraid...but I know that is not how Tolkien described them. (Actually, I'm afraid the first time I "saw" an orc it looked like this.)

To me it seems like in some ways modern fantasy may owe a lot more to D&D than it does to Tolkien.