What's up with Celeborn?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Galin:

Quite so. Oops.

However, as with much of the Lorien chapters (written fifteen years before the final form of Appendix B), it's pretty clear that *at the time of writing* Tolkien regarded Celeborn as a native Avar, not even a Nando (who didn't exist), and I surmise one who therefore would or could never go West, so that his parting from Galadriel would be permanent within Time.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

However, as with much of the Lorien chapters (written fifteen years before the final form of Appendix B), it's pretty clear that *at the time of writing* Tolkien regarded Celeborn as a native Avar, not even a Nando (who didn't exist), and I surmise one who therefore would or could never go West, so that his parting from Galadriel would be permanent within Time.

Well... In Letter 347 -- written on 17 December 1972, less than a year before JRRT died -- Tolkien said, "Celeborn is a transl. of the orig. name Telporno; though said to be a kinsman of Elu Thingol he was so only afar off, for he too came from Valinor." This is in keeping with at least one version of his background story for Galadriel and Celeborn, and how they came to ME at the time of Feanor's revolt.

This is why I consider a lot of what's in the HoME books to be interesting, but not to be taken as the last word. They present variations of what he was in the process of writing or revising, but not necessarily his final thoughts on the matter, nor what he would have chosen to be published. Neither do the Letters, really; they are both insights to the mind of the man, and how he worked, and he appears to have been a writer whose creations were a constant work in progress. He was always thinking of how to improve them, how to edit them and tweak them to bring them closer to the vision he had -- at that time. I have to wonder from that letter if he forgot that he had already given Celeborn's Quenya name as Teleporno, or if he had reconsidered the form of it and decided to drop the second E. Was that what he was thinking at the time...? We don't really know.

Now, all that said, the notion of Arwen being a "treasure" shared by both Celeborn and Aragorn seems not implausible to me -- a rather grandfatherly bit of indulgence, as it were.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This is why I consider a lot of what's in the HoME books to be interesting, but not to be taken as the last word.

I would submit that in cases like this there is no Last Word.

In other words, I would answer the quastion "Was Celeborn a native Silvan elf, or a Sindarin prince of Doriath, or a Teler of Aman?" with "All three-- at different times."

[Galin]

I don't know about last word, but maybe 'official story' rather.

As Celeborn as one of the Sindar is what JRRT himself decided to publish, or 'tell his Readership' (twice), so to speak, then that is the official tale then, to my mind anyway. In the contest of textual parity, draft text (of any date) and letters cannot compete here in my opinion.

I find it interesting to note the variant ideas here, but generally with Tolkien's work we have been given a rather unique vantage point due to Christopher Tolkien, and I think this should be kept in mind at least when there is Tolkien-published text on the other side of the scale.

BTW Mr. Hicklin can you elaborate on your comment on Celeborn as an Avar -- at what point, or to what text do you refer to with 'at the time of writing' -- do you mean when writing the Epilogue, or when writing the early chapters for instance?

On that note I'll note (just for interest maybe) that when working on Many Partings, Celeborn's words were first: 'Kinsman, farewell, but your doom is like to mine; for our treasure shall outlast us both.'

This interested me in any case, from H&S's new book; especially the date.

'(...) These comments imply that Celeborn could have left Middle-earth with Galadriel if he had wished, and Tolkien's replies to queries from readers seem to confirm this. In his unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963 he comments that Celeborn and Galadriel were of different kin: Celeborn was of that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar to go to Valinor; he had never seen the Blessed Realm. Now he remained until he had seen the coming of the Dominion of Men. But to an immortal Elf, for whom time was not as it is to mortals, the period in which he was parted from Galadriel would seem brief.' Hammond And Scull, Reader's Companion

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What I was referring to was the fact that, while writing the Lorien chapters, probably in 1941, Tolkien quickly elevated Galadriel to a Noldorin princess but Celeborn remained what they both first appeared as: a native Silvan ruler. Judging by the writings of the late 30's and the absence of any counterindication in the LR text up to that point, the creation of the 'Nandor' still lay ahead, prob. about 1951-52. In QS and the later Annals, the Danians or Pereldar (half-Eldar) appear, but it's clear that all of them entered Beleriand and became the Green-elves. Certainly the Wood-elves of The Hobbit were envisioned at the time as Avari, and all the evidence seems to point to the conclusion that, as of 1941, Tolkien didn't conceive of the Silvan natives of Lorien as being any different, or of any Eldar existing east of the Mountains besides G. herself.

It's interesting that even so late as 1963, by which time Celeborn was unquestinably a Sinda (it appears), T would use the phrase "that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar;" which, literally, defined the Avari (the Sindar of course didn't refuse; they missed the boat looking for Thingol).

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It's interesting that even so late as 1963, by which time Celeborn was unquestinably a Sinda (it appears), T would use the phrase "that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar;" which, literally, defined the Avari (the Sindar of course didn't refuse; they missed the boat looking for Thingol).

I agree. And Tolkien appears to have forgotten Appendix B (first edition): 'The exiled Noldor dwelt in Lindon, but many of the Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forests far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the north of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the south of the forest. But the wife of Celeborn was Noldorin:' Subsequent revision to the Second Edition impacted this, but in any case Tolkien published again in The Road Goes Ever On that Celeborn was one of the Sindar.

I also agree that it's possible JRRT thought that Celeborn was an Avar at some early point, but I'm not sure about it being clearly so.

What I was referring to was the fact that, while writing the Lorien chapters, probably in 1941, Tolkien quickly elevated Galadriel to a Noldorin princess but Celeborn remained what they both first appeared as: a native Silvan ruler.

Did they first appear as native Silvans? According to CJRT, early phrases 'strongly suggest' both Galadriel and Celeborn to be Noldorin Exiles (note 12 Galadriel The Treason Of Isengard. A subsequent addition to the manuscript has Galadriel passing Over Sea with Melian -- note 31 Galadriel).

Judging by the writings of the late 30's and the absence of any counterindication in the LR text up to that point, the creation of the 'Nandor' still lay ahead, prob. about 1951-52. In QS and the later Annals, the Danians or Pereldar (half-Eldar) appear, but it's clear that all of them entered Beleriand and became the Green-elves.

The Quenta Silmarillion proper may be a bit vague on this, but both the Later Annals and especially the Lhammas describe the Danians as having eastern kin, for example: '... but none passed east over Eredlindon, save only the Green-elves, for they had kindred that were yet in the further lands.' (Later Annals of Beleriand). In the Lhammas (The Lost Road) the eastern Danians are called Leikvir. In Lammasethen: 'The Danians were of the Lindar [> Noldor] and began the march, but turned south and strayed, long ere Beleriand was reached. They did not come into Beleriand, and then but in part, for many ages. Some reckon them Eldarin, some Lembian. In truth they are neither and have a middle-place.'

The geography of The Lord of the Rings is not in place of course, but I think the general model (at least) of the Nandor is, before the early work on Galadriel and Celeborn. In Unfinished Tales Christopher Tolkien states (History of Galadriel And Celeborn): 'in all probability Celeborn was in this conception a Nandorin Elf' -- referring to what turns out to be revision to the early chapter, since the statement referred to above in note 31 (Galadriel) was revised ('... for ere the Fall of Nargothrond' and etc).

In later draft text to the Appendix on Languages and The Tale of Years of the Second Age, the Avari seem equated with the East-elves. However in text F4 (The Appendix on Languages) there were Eastern Elves that had hearkened to no summons to the Sea, while Celeborn is said to be a Grey-elf.

'Certainly the Wood-elves of The Hobbit were envisioned at the time as Avari, and all the evidence seems to point to the conclusion that, as of 1941, Tolkien didn't conceive of the Silvan natives of Lorien as being any different, or of any Eldar existing east of the Mountains besides G. herself.'

In chapter Medwed John Rateliff provides an outline which includes 'capture by the Sea-elves' and later argues that this refers to the Wood-elves of Mirkwood (in commentary on chapter In The Halls of the Elven-king).

'For example, the third group Tolkien mentions in The Hobbit, the Sea-elves, became divided between those who actually crossed the sea and reached Elvenhome (the Teleri) and those who remained behind in Beleriand with Thingol (the Sindar or Grey-elves); the latter group became the wood-elves of our story-- cf. the reference in the first sketchy outline to the Dwarves' 'capture by the Sea elves' (p. 229), meaning the wood-elves of Mirkwood.'

He further notes (note 40 Mirkwood): 'The Wood-elves, according to this schema, are Ilkorindi or Dark-elves, those who never came to Valinor or saw the Two Trees.' Not that I agree with everything in Rateliff's look at The Hobbit, but I think that given the details so far it is hard to be certain.

I think Tolkien's seeming later decision to exclude 'Avari' from The Lord of the Rings at least leaves things open for a similar model to that of the Danians. The Nandor of later conceptions could be Eldar according to one definition, but 'not-Eldar' according to another -- and as narrowed in The Lord of the Rings, only the Elves who sailed Over Sea and the Sindar are West-elves or Eldar.

That said, the Tolkien-published tale arguably contains odd statements that do seem to imply Celeborn was not Sindarin -- but again (and not that you disagreed necessarily) since Tolkien had published quite straightforwardly that he was, it is my view that Sindarin is thus his official clan (agrees nicely with the 1977 Silmarillion in any case). And other Tolkien-published statements should, in my opinion, be 'made' to work around this -- or at least accepted as possibly confusing but subordinate to clearer description.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

In chapter Medwed John Rateliff provides an outline which includes 'capture by the Sea-elves' and later argues that this refers to the Wood-elves of Mirkwood (in commentary on chapter In The Halls of the Elven-king).

Nice post, first of all. Rateliff's assertion that the Wood-elves are Sindarin is a direct contradiction of Tolkien, who states that Oropher and his son, Thranduil, founded a Sindarin kingdom among the Silvan Elves (just as Celeborn and Galadriel founded a similar society based on Eldar leadership over a Silvan community). I'm at work, so once again I am basing my statement on recollections that I believe to be...ummm...at least partially correct.