What connection between Goldberry and Ulmo?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Not wishing to demean Lady Goldberry nor lessen her status, but if you are speaking in context of her creation, then you must look elsewhere than Lord of the Rings -- to a 1934 poem regarding Bombadil; thus she is part and parcel of the Bombadil story, an adjunct character that was not contrived organically by Tolkien for LotR. Therefore, I would include her in the Tom Bombadil Enigmatic & Utterly Unorthodox Journey.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I tend to think that what Goldberry is (meaning, what she is in relation to her presentation in the published version of LotR) is much the same as Tom Bombadil, an enigmatic creation that seems rather a "holdover" from the time that Tolkien was still thinking of LotR as a "Hobbit sequel." Their general nature feels more akin to the world we see in TH than it does to the world we see in LotR.

There are several views in which we can look at the topic. We can look at what Goldberry was supposed to represent in Tolkien's universe, even at different stages (as Ibri mentioned), whether she is anachronic in LotR or not, whether she is even consistent with the world etc.
What I am asking, is what would we say from the "in-world" point of view, i.e. if you were omniscient inhabitant of M-E who makes classifications of all people and creatures of Arda, what would you say about Goldberry? You cannot say "she was part of Bombadil's story" - she was not, she was a "River-daughter" (and we are to answer what that is) and Tom found her sometime during the Third Age! And now, we have to say: "She is a Maia", "she is another spirit sent by Ulmo" or "she is a being who somehow came from outside the Eä, and is not an Ainu or anything else".

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

You cannot say "she was part of Bombadil's story" - she was not, she was a "River-daughter" (and we are to answer what that is) and Tom found her sometime during the Third Age! And now, we have to say: "She is a Maia", "she is another spirit sent by Ulmo" or "she is a being who somehow came from outside the Eä, and is not an Ainu or anything else".

I cannot say? She was not part of Bombadil's story? Tom found her in the 3rd Age? She was a "River-daughter" and we are to answer what that is? We have to say she is a Maia? *boggles*

Okay, I'll play this game.

If I were omniscient, then Balrogs did have wings, Orcs were derived from Men and not Elves, Hobbits have lunch (right after elevensies), and Tom and Goldberry were spirits of the Old Oxfordshire countryside (hence no ill effects from being in proximity or having direct contact with the One Ring, because they had no contextual connection with Middle-earth). But there is an excellent essay on Bombadil and Goldberry wherein the author, Gene Hargrove, puts forth the proposition that Goldberry is indeed Yavanna and Tom is Aule. It can be found here...

http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

I don't necessarily agree with his assumptions, but the essay is well-researched and thought provoking.

Originally Posted by davem

Or even a corruption of 'gold-bearer' which would be a nice kenning for a forest-river with fallen autumn leaves being carried upon its surface.

A very mellifluous description, davem, and quite an appropriate allusion for the Withywindle.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I cannot say? She was not part of Bombadil's story? Tom found her in the 3rd Age? She was a "River-daughter" and we are to answer what that is? We have to say she is a Maia? *boggles*

Morthoron, don't be silly! I am not saying that you have to try to present it from the in-ME point of view. If you want to look at it in one of the other views, why not? I was merely explaining from which view I am trying to look at it, and therefore, what my posts refer to.

This far, it seems the most probable to me what I said above: That she is of the creation (river-daughter) - i.e. she is "daughter" of something which is already by itself a creation - unlike Tom, who is "Oldest" and "Fatherless" (! compare). Now, Ainur don't have any offspring in the published version of the mythology - or do they? (Melian...) Is is possible that Goldberry is a Melian-like character herself (joining old Tom instead of Thingol), or that she is already a descendant of such character? Quite possible. Or, is she really something that "came out of the river" by itself? (And is such a thing likely in Tolkien's world?)

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tom is Aule.

IF he was a Vala, I would say he was much more like Orome

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for all the responses! Sorry I haven't the time to comment on them in detail, but I am enjoying your thoughts.

Morthoron, as the initiator of this discussion, I have no objection to either point of view - from "inside" the story or from "outside". However, mixing the two could be problematic; trying to argue from outside about suggestions from inside doesn't work, and vice versa.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

If I were going to look at this from "inside" the story -- say, as an Elf contemplating the mysteries of the world -- I would be inclined to think that, if Goldberry was known as the daughter of the "river woman," she was somehow a descendant of Uinen, whose "tresses are spread through all the waters of the world." If Melian, another Maia, could wed Thingol and have a daughter, why not the Lady of the Seas? I would wonder who the father of the River Daughter was, but the identity of her mother would seem quite plain to me. Of course, this would imply that Uinen was not faithful to her spouse, but given what was known of his tempestuous nature, I don't think I could be too hard on her for seeking even a fleeting moment of love akin to that between Melian and Thingol. How Goldberry and Tom eventually met, and why she would choose to stay with him, I would wonder, since he seems rather a peculiar individual, but since he is "oldest and fatherless," I would suspect Tom is some kind of Ainu, a creation of Eru alone, not conceived in the manner of normal incarnate creatures. "Oldest" I would also wonder about, and probably conclude that it meant "oldest being living in this particular place," since "oldest" is a claim also made by the Ents, and, for that matter, Melkor. A matter of perspective and interpretation. If Tom is an Ainu (probably a Maia, I should think), then it would seem perfectly natural to me for him to take as his lady the daughter of another Maia, who no doubt sees him as he is, in truth, and understands him -- idiosyncrasies and all -- much better than I.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I would be inclined to think that, if Goldberry was known as the daughter of the "river woman," she was somehow a descendant of Uinen, whose "tresses are spread through all the waters of the world." If Melian, another Maia, could wed Thingol and have a daughter, why not the Lady of the Seas? I would wonder who the father of the River Daughter was, but the identity of her mother would seem quite plain to me. Of course, this would imply that Uinen was not faithful to her spouse, but given what was known of his tempestuous nature, I don't think I could be too hard on her for seeking even a fleeting moment of love akin to that between Melian and Thingol.

This does not sound bad as a variant, except for one point with which I must cathegorically disagree, and that's Uinen being unfaithful to her spouse. The main point is that I'd never have expected, or imagined, anything like that in Tolkien's works - as far as I know, there are no such cases mentioned anywhere in the books. Strangely, we have death, fading of the love or even turning it to hatred; we have also incest, but in neither case infidelity. Maybe with the exception of Aldarion (just metaphorically, though). Anyway, what I said - I find that unlikely and actually the more when thinking about Uinen, who, as far as we know her, is loving her husband to the point that she is able to live with him (this, for me, speaks for her being faithful to Ossë - if she had enough of his angriness, then she would have simply left him to storm as he wishes), she even calms him down when he almost destroys the land and under other occassions. This implies that she cares about him really deeply. So, if Goldberry were the daughter of Uinen, I would say she has to be also Ossë's daughter. However...

...what about this. I would say, if Goldberry were to be descended from Uinen, I would make her the granddaughter of Uinen, and not daughter; this way, the former problem would be solved and also the link to Ossë (whose furious nature does not go somehow with Goldberry) would be somewhat weakened. Also, the real daughter of Uinen could be some spirit more specifically linked to the rivers or river (one) or the rivers in NW Middle-Earth or something like that - and now even the words about "River-woman" would fit.

However, the ultimate question in the background is, are Ainur capable of having children with other Ainu? We know they do when it comes to mortals (Thingol), but with other Ainur, I wouldn't be so sure. At least in the published works there is nothing that would imply so. Then again, the question would be, if the offspring would have to be indeed "physical", as it was in Thingol and Melian's case, or some, like, "spiritual" offspring - note that in any case, the "child" won't be a "classic Ainu", as the Ainur were something created by Ilúvatar, where this one would be begotten - Lo! Indeed, a River-daughter.

So that would be my proposal when we come to the Ainur-origin option.

[Bêthberry]

I think I would have to chime in with Legate and say that unfaithfulness to a spouse would not be a realistic attribute for any of the characters in Middle-earth. It simply is not part of Tolkien's range of possibilities. After all, he has the elves marrying for life and seemingly able to have creative control over their sexual drives. And for all the gender distinctions and differences amongst the maiar they seem quite a-sexual. Infidelity is simply not a 'given' in Tolkien's universe.

Yet something sexual is going on in the original verses of ATB, where there does seem to be some sort of primal sexual scene played out. The suggestions of aggression, if not violence, are broadly given--sorry, don't have the books to hand and may come back once I can get at them. First I think it is Goldberry who taunts and attracts Tom and then it is Tom who somehow has to outwit her mother. (Memory maybe be a bit dim here.) There is also a slight suggestion that Tom's eventual taking of Goldberry could possibly not be entirely consensual. It is very different from the domestic scenes in LotR.

It is one thing to say that we should consider Goldberry just as she appears in LotR, but I think to posit parentage from the maia on that without taking any consideration of how she appears in ATB would be niggling a bit much with the Legendarium--niggling by overlooking. One doesn't have to agree with Hardgroves, in the link kindly provided by davem, in order to find his concept of how Tolkien tinkered with anomalies and errors very attractive.

Well, really must dash off now.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Morthoron, as the initiator of this discussion, I have no objection to either point of view - from "inside" the story or from "outside". However, mixing the two could be problematic; trying to argue from outside about suggestions from inside doesn't work, and vice versa.

Actually, I wasn't mixing anything Estelyn, merely following other poster's conjectures. I subscribe to the 'outside' the story theory regarding Goldberry and Tom based strictly on Tolkien's letters and the manner in which the two interact with nature, but do not interact with the world outside their self-imposed boundaries. They are an allegory bound within a microcosm.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

One doesn't have to agree with Hardgroves, in the link kindly provided by davem, in order to find his concept of how Tolkien tinkered with anomalies and errors very attractive.

The link was kindly provided by the Dark Elf, but I shan't hold it against you. *winks*

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thank you for explaining your point of view more precisely, Morthoron - that helps clarify it for me.

Legate, Bb, Ibri, I was thinking along similar lines, and it's interesting to discuss various possibilities!

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The link was kindly provided by the Dark Elf, but I shan't hold it against you. *winks*

*The daughter of the daughter of the River-Woman bows to acknowledge the courtesy of the Dark Elf, as links, chains and other accoutrements of bondage, when held against her for study of effect, so do not become her*

There's one aspect of the Tom and Goldberry as nature spirits theory that I don't think has been addressed. When the Valar departed Middle-earth, they left it in Melkor's control. Sometimes Yavanna and others attempted to mend the effects of this evil presence, but their efforts were sporadic and did not extend over all of Arda. So, if Arda is marred, if Middle-earth is tainted by the evil and chaos of Melkor, does that not mean that all of the natural world is fallen? Nature cannot therefore be either neutral or positive, but must be something to be fought against, for fear of succumbing to Melkor's taint. And even with the defeat of Melkor, was this pollution repaired? I don't think so but perhaps there is some archane comment in one of the secondary sources that addresses this point.

So, if Goldberry (and Tom) are spirits of the natural world, are they part of this marring? The violence in ATB suggests as much, while the domestic peace of LotR would suggest something else.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Is Tom a part of the natural world, meaning sprung of the incarnate world that Melkor marred? I've never thought so. That the Ring has no power or hold on him at all suggests that he comes of untainted roots, sent to or placed in Middle-earth with some other purpose to which he is so singularly dedicated, anything else is of little or at best temporary importance to him.

It's because of this (and his claim to be "oldest and fatherless," not to mention his query, "Who are you, yourself, alone, and nameless?") that I believe he's an Ainu. As I have studied Tolkien's works over the years, I've wondered if what he is is a Maia of Yavanna, sent to ME long ago, perhaps to check up on things for her, and/or to remain there as a guardian, before the awakening of the Eruhini. What tends to support this possibility (at least in my pointed little head ) is an examination of the few Maiar we know, especially those who are specifically sent as messengers or emissaries of those they serve. Both Sauron and Curumo were once Maiar of Aule, and both of them demonstrated reflections of Aule's desire for order (what do you call it when a person keeps rebuilding things that another tries to destroy?), as well as his impatience (as in his fashioning of the Dwarves). Unfortunately, they didn't pick up on Aule's willingness to serve humbly. Eonwe and Olorin are both Maiar of Manwe, and they both demonstrate his qualities of leadership, as well as his naievte in regard to evil (all three of them allowed freedom to people who had already amply demonstrated that they could not be trusted and would, in fact, turn on anyone, including their own kin, a freedom that invariably led to bad results).

So when I consider Yavanna's servant, Aiwendil, and what became of him... it looks not unlike the situation of Tom. Aiwendil became so enamored of the kelvar and olvar of ME, he forgot about his greater mission, spent more and more time around his home in Rhosgobel, and in the end did not return to Valinor (as Tolkien tells us in his poem fragment, "Wilt thou learn the lore/of five who came from a far country?/Only one returned..."). Tom is remarkably similar. He loves the land that is his domain, and all that is in it, and he does have knowledge of the world beyond it, but he will not leave it. It seems rather unlikely that the Old Forest is a place of such incredible importance that it truly requires a powerful guardian -- at least now. Perhaps once, it did, or perhaps once, Tom had a mission and a purpose that extended well beyond it. Orome and Yavanna did indeed appear to be the two Valar who showed the most interest in ME before the awakening of the Elves, and they also seem to be the ones who did the most active searching for them. If Orome himself would go to ME, hunting the monsters of Melkor and searching for signs of the Children, might not Yavanna have sent her own servants on a similar mission? Tom, I think, was one of them who became like Aiwendil: he so loved the world he had been sent to help, he put down roots of his own, and now will not leave the place he has made for himself.

If I were to try to compare Goldberry to any Maia we know, it might well be Uinen, for, aside from her appellation as the "River-daughter," she seems to be a calming influence on Tom, much as Uinen is to Osse, a gentler, more accessible -- more "normal," if you will -- presence that tones down what might be seen as his excesses.

Well, it's just theory, but most of it has been bouncing about in my brain for some years. Just another two cents.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

So, if Arda is marred, if Middle-earth is tainted by the evil and chaos of Melkor, does that not mean that all of the natural world is fallen? Nature cannot therefore be either neutral or positive, but must be something to be fought against, for fear of succumbing to Melkor's taint. And even with the defeat of Melkor, was this pollution repaired? I don't think so but perhaps there is some archane comment in one of the secondary sources that addresses this point.

So, if Goldberry (and Tom) are spirits of the natural world, are they part of this marring? The violence in ATB suggests as much, while the domestic peace of LotR would suggest something else.

Well, the idea that Melkor's evil had infested the very stuff of Arda had not come into being when either AoTB or LotR was written, so neither of them was composed with that idea in mind (& I don't think either of them can sustain the conceit). The idea of Arda being 'Morgoth's Ring' causes problems which were never really addressed. As with a lot of the stuff gathered together under the heading of 'Myths Transformed' in HoM-e 10 it causes numerous difficulties - not least the Tom/Goldberry one Bb points up here.

One of Tolkien's most annoying habits was continually coming up with concepts which had a major effect on the Secondary World & presenting them as 'givens' of M-e but not actually developing, or properly integrating them - & in many cases that's because those ideas conflict with each other to such a degree that they can't be integrated.

Or in short - see me sig...

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

So, if Arda is marred, if Middle-earth is tainted by the evil and chaos of Melkor, does that not mean that all of the natural world is fallen?

Yes I believe it does, but in the sense of fallen from its ideal (but utopian) state, not fallen to pure evil. I read Morgoth's marring as an allegory for mankind's (and nature's) capacity for evil or rebellion against god which also, of course, is a requisite for doing good. Much like christianity's Fall of Man

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

...Nature cannot therefore be either neutral or positive, but must be something to be fought against, for fear of succumbing to Melkor's taint.

So I don't think nature nessesarily must be fought against even though it is tainted by Morgoth. Nature is in it's orgin good, and still is despite the marring of Morgoth. It might become twisted however like fex. Old Man Willow.

But as Ibrin noted, Tom seems to be 'untainted' however as the ring has no power over him or tempts him in any way.

As for the Goldberry's connection with Ulmo I can't think of anything clever to say.