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#1 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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What I am asking, is what would we say from the "in-world" point of view, i.e. if you were omniscient inhabitant of M-E who makes classifications of all people and creatures of Arda, what would you say about Goldberry? You cannot say "she was part of Bombadil's story" - she was not, she was a "River-daughter" (and we are to answer what that is) and Tom found her sometime during the Third Age! And now, we have to say: "She is a Maia", "she is another spirit sent by Ulmo" or "she is a being who somehow came from outside the Eä, and is not an Ainu or anything else".
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#2 | ||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
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Okay, I'll play this game. If I were omniscient, then Balrogs did have wings, Orcs were derived from Men and not Elves, Hobbits have lunch (right after elevensies), and Tom and Goldberry were spirits of the Old Oxfordshire countryside (hence no ill effects from being in proximity or having direct contact with the One Ring, because they had no contextual connection with Middle-earth). But there is an excellent essay on Bombadil and Goldberry wherein the author, Gene Hargrove, puts forth the proposition that Goldberry is indeed Yavanna and Tom is Aule. It can be found here... http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html I don't necessarily agree with his assumptions, but the essay is well-researched and thought provoking. Quote:
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 04-13-2008 at 10:23 PM. |
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#3 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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This far, it seems the most probable to me what I said above: That she is of the creation (river-daughter) - i.e. she is "daughter" of something which is already by itself a creation - unlike Tom, who is "Oldest" and "Fatherless" (! compare). Now, Ainur don't have any offspring in the published version of the mythology - or do they? (Melian...) Is is possible that Goldberry is a Melian-like character herself (joining old Tom instead of Thingol), or that she is already a descendant of such character? Quite possible. Or, is she really something that "came out of the river" by itself? (And is such a thing likely in Tolkien's world?)
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#4 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,928
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IF he was a Vala, I would say he was much more like Orome
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#5 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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Thanks for all the responses! Sorry I haven't the time to comment on them in detail, but I am enjoying your thoughts.
Morthoron, as the initiator of this discussion, I have no objection to either point of view - from "inside" the story or from "outside". However, mixing the two could be problematic; trying to argue from outside about suggestions from inside doesn't work, and vice versa.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
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If I were going to look at this from "inside" the story -- say, as an Elf contemplating the mysteries of the world -- I would be inclined to think that, if Goldberry was known as the daughter of the "river woman," she was somehow a descendant of Uinen, whose "tresses are spread through all the waters of the world." If Melian, another Maia, could wed Thingol and have a daughter, why not the Lady of the Seas? I would wonder who the father of the River Daughter was, but the identity of her mother would seem quite plain to me. Of course, this would imply that Uinen was not faithful to her spouse, but given what was known of his tempestuous nature, I don't think I could be too hard on her for seeking even a fleeting moment of love akin to that between Melian and Thingol. How Goldberry and Tom eventually met, and why she would choose to stay with him, I would wonder, since he seems rather a peculiar individual, but since he is "oldest and fatherless," I would suspect Tom is some kind of Ainu, a creation of Eru alone, not conceived in the manner of normal incarnate creatures. "Oldest" I would also wonder about, and probably conclude that it meant "oldest being living in this particular place," since "oldest" is a claim also made by the Ents, and, for that matter, Melkor. A matter of perspective and interpretation. If Tom is an Ainu (probably a Maia, I should think), then it would seem perfectly natural to me for him to take as his lady the daughter of another Maia, who no doubt sees him as he is, in truth, and understands him -- idiosyncrasies and all -- much better than I.
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill |
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#7 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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...what about this. I would say, if Goldberry were to be descended from Uinen, I would make her the granddaughter of Uinen, and not daughter; this way, the former problem would be solved and also the link to Ossë (whose furious nature does not go somehow with Goldberry) would be somewhat weakened. Also, the real daughter of Uinen could be some spirit more specifically linked to the rivers or river (one) or the rivers in NW Middle-Earth or something like that - and now even the words about "River-woman" would fit. However, the ultimate question in the background is, are Ainur capable of having children with other Ainu? We know they do when it comes to mortals (Thingol), but with other Ainur, I wouldn't be so sure. At least in the published works there is nothing that would imply so. Then again, the question would be, if the offspring would have to be indeed "physical", as it was in Thingol and Melian's case, or some, like, "spiritual" offspring - note that in any case, the "child" won't be a "classic Ainu", as the Ainur were something created by Ilúvatar, where this one would be begotten - Lo! Indeed, a River-daughter. So that would be my proposal when we come to the Ainur-origin option.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#8 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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I think I would have to chime in with Legate and say that unfaithfulness to a spouse would not be a realistic attribute for any of the characters in Middle-earth. It simply is not part of Tolkien's range of possibilities. After all, he has the elves marrying for life and seemingly able to have creative control over their sexual drives. And for all the gender distinctions and differences amongst the maiar they seem quite a-sexual. Infidelity is simply not a 'given' in Tolkien's universe.
Yet something sexual is going on in the original verses of ATB, where there does seem to be some sort of primal sexual scene played out. The suggestions of aggression, if not violence, are broadly given--sorry, don't have the books to hand and may come back once I can get at them. First I think it is Goldberry who taunts and attracts Tom and then it is Tom who somehow has to outwit her mother. (Memory maybe be a bit dim here.) There is also a slight suggestion that Tom's eventual taking of Goldberry could possibly not be entirely consensual. It is very different from the domestic scenes in LotR. It is one thing to say that we should consider Goldberry just as she appears in LotR, but I think to posit parentage from the maia on that without taking any consideration of how she appears in ATB would be niggling a bit much with the Legendarium--niggling by overlooking. One doesn't have to agree with Hardgroves, in the link kindly provided by davem, in order to find his concept of how Tolkien tinkered with anomalies and errors very attractive. Well, really must dash off now.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#9 | ||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 04-14-2008 at 07:35 PM. |
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#10 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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Thank you for explaining your point of view more precisely, Morthoron - that helps clarify it for me.
Legate, Bb, Ibri, I was thinking along similar lines, and it's interesting to discuss various possibilities!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#11 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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There's one aspect of the Tom and Goldberry as nature spirits theory that I don't think has been addressed. When the Valar departed Middle-earth, they left it in Melkor's control. Sometimes Yavanna and others attempted to mend the effects of this evil presence, but their efforts were sporadic and did not extend over all of Arda. So, if Arda is marred, if Middle-earth is tainted by the evil and chaos of Melkor, does that not mean that all of the natural world is fallen? Nature cannot therefore be either neutral or positive, but must be something to be fought against, for fear of succumbing to Melkor's taint. And even with the defeat of Melkor, was this pollution repaired? I don't think so but perhaps there is some archane comment in one of the secondary sources that addresses this point. So, if Goldberry (and Tom) are spirits of the natural world, are they part of this marring? The violence in ATB suggests as much, while the domestic peace of LotR would suggest something else.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
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Is Tom a part of the natural world, meaning sprung of the incarnate world that Melkor marred? I've never thought so. That the Ring has no power or hold on him at all suggests that he comes of untainted roots, sent to or placed in Middle-earth with some other purpose to which he is so singularly dedicated, anything else is of little or at best temporary importance to him.
It's because of this (and his claim to be "oldest and fatherless," not to mention his query, "Who are you, yourself, alone, and nameless?") that I believe he's an Ainu. As I have studied Tolkien's works over the years, I've wondered if what he is is a Maia of Yavanna, sent to ME long ago, perhaps to check up on things for her, and/or to remain there as a guardian, before the awakening of the Eruhini. What tends to support this possibility (at least in my pointed little head ![]() So when I consider Yavanna's servant, Aiwendil, and what became of him... it looks not unlike the situation of Tom. Aiwendil became so enamored of the kelvar and olvar of ME, he forgot about his greater mission, spent more and more time around his home in Rhosgobel, and in the end did not return to Valinor (as Tolkien tells us in his poem fragment, "Wilt thou learn the lore/of five who came from a far country?/Only one returned..."). Tom is remarkably similar. He loves the land that is his domain, and all that is in it, and he does have knowledge of the world beyond it, but he will not leave it. It seems rather unlikely that the Old Forest is a place of such incredible importance that it truly requires a powerful guardian -- at least now. Perhaps once, it did, or perhaps once, Tom had a mission and a purpose that extended well beyond it. Orome and Yavanna did indeed appear to be the two Valar who showed the most interest in ME before the awakening of the Elves, and they also seem to be the ones who did the most active searching for them. If Orome himself would go to ME, hunting the monsters of Melkor and searching for signs of the Children, might not Yavanna have sent her own servants on a similar mission? Tom, I think, was one of them who became like Aiwendil: he so loved the world he had been sent to help, he put down roots of his own, and now will not leave the place he has made for himself. If I were to try to compare Goldberry to any Maia we know, it might well be Uinen, for, aside from her appellation as the "River-daughter," she seems to be a calming influence on Tom, much as Uinen is to Osse, a gentler, more accessible -- more "normal," if you will -- presence that tones down what might be seen as his excesses. Well, it's just theory, but most of it has been bouncing about in my brain for some years. Just another two cents.
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill |
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#13 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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One of Tolkien's most annoying habits was continually coming up with concepts which had a major effect on the Secondary World & presenting them as 'givens' of M-e but not actually developing, or properly integrating them - & in many cases that's because those ideas conflict with each other to such a degree that they can't be integrated. Or in short - see me sig... |
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#14 | ||
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
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But as Ibrin noted, Tom seems to be 'untainted' however as the ring has no power over him or tempts him in any way. As for the Goldberry's connection with Ulmo I can't think of anything clever to say. ![]()
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