LOTR and your Weltanschauung

[Joy]

Wow!! Those are really neat comparisions. I would have not thought to look at this that way.

I am going to have to go back and read with a different eye this time. Thanks.

BTW, did you know that a Christian author that writes on warfare has writen a book called "This Day We Fight" and stated that he got it from the RotK movie.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Animated Skeleton

I’ve noticed that many here on the Downs (myself included) first encountered LOTR during impressionable formative years (usually early adolescence), at a time when many of us were struggling, consciously or unconsciously, to construct a view of the world that made sense to us. LOTR is a tale with a strong, uncompromising, clearly defined moral element. So I’m wondering... what credit (if any) do you give to JRRT’s work in shaping your own moral system/personal philosophy/worldview? Do you think you would be a different man or woman than you are today if you hadn’t read the books? Can three or four books change a person’s life?

Are you suggesting, Mr. Underhill, that LotR speaks mainly to impressionable youth and that others who have already developed or established their own worldview find less value in it? If so, then perhaps you have identified how LotR 'chooses' its readers?

[Mister Underhill]

I wasn't suggesting anything so much as I was making an observation: that in my experience most (not all!) people take up LotR when they are young, or not at all. How much this says about LotR, and how much about our culture and the effects of age, I can't say. Also, I felt that Tolkien had had a rather profound and, as it turns out, lasting effect on me, and I wondered if others might have had similar experiences.

I would not go so far as to say that young and impressionable people necessarily get more "value" out of LotR by virtue of their inexperience, although I'd say they are more apt to be receptive to its idealistic moral standpoint. Whether that standpoint is valuable or not has been the subject of some debate. As I recall from a certain philosophy thread -- or was it one about characterization? -- there are at least a few Downers who are attracted to LotR's moral philsophy on some abstract level, but consider it untenable or at least unrealistic in "the real world".

Anyway, this thread was meant more as a place for people to share or to speculate about how (or if) Tolkien's work had any significant impact on their own personal Weltanschauung than a place for making any sweeping generalizations about who gets more value out of LotR.

Also it was a chance to use the word Weltanschauung, which I never pass up. Try it. It's fun. Weltanschauung.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Also it was a chance to use the word Weltanschauung, which I never pass up. Try it. It's fun. Weltanschauung.

Last year I could pronounce it without a Russian accent... not this year.

"Weltanschauungskina."

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Anyway, this thread was meant more as a place for people to share or to speculate about how (or if) Tolkien's work had any significant impact on their own personal Weltanschauung than a place for making any sweeping generalizations about who gets more value out of LotR.

Also it was a chance to use the word Weltanschauung, which I never pass up. Try it. It's fun. Weltanschauung.

Ah, hmm. Well, I wasn't so much interested in getting the broomsticks out or making hierarchies of readers. I had thought I was ontopic and maybe taking the subject farther, since the thread had needed six 'ups' on the first page to keep it going.

I was wondering if to some degree the book impacts on people who are already predisposed towards a certain world view rather than being a prime influence in helping establish that Weltanschauung. Maybe just a chicken and egg point however.

But perhaps you are right in focussing just on the kind of subjectivity itself. Young people might be said to be rather more into the Sturm und Drang.

[Mister Underhill]

I didn't mean to zing you for being off-topic; I only meant to articulate what interests me about the thread. You're right that it hasn't been, over the years, a smash hit of Canonicity proportions, but I daresay there's quality -- if not quantity -- here that rivals some of the more analytical threads of recent times.

As an artist, I'm very interested in thinking about what effect or impact my work can have on other people. What is possible beyond mere entertainment? As a reader, LotR is one work I can definitely point a finger at and say, "Well that did something." So I mean, in answer to your questions, I can't say whether young readers get more value in general out of LotR than older readers, or whether LotR activates some philosophical predisposition in readers or actually helps form the philosophy from the ground up. I can't even answer those questions definitively for myself, let alone for some hypothetical group of readers.

Let me ask you this: at what age did you first read Tolkien? What impact, if any, do you think he had on your Weltanschauung? I'm also interested in the replies of people who say, no, no book has affected or is likely to significantly affect my worldview, if that's your experience.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

As an artist, I'm very interested in thinking about what effect or impact my work can have on other people. What is possible beyond mere entertainment?

Hasn't the role of art has always been questioned as pure or sole delight" Isn't there some old saying about "to inform and delight"? I seem to recall that phrase.

Originally Posted by Mr. Underhill

I can't even answer those questions definitively for myself, let alone for some hypothetical group of readers.

Let me ask you this: at what age did you first read Tolkien? What impact, if any, do you think he had on your Weltanschauung? I'm also interested in the replies of people who say, no, no book has affected or is likely to significantly affect my worldview, if that's your experience.

I'm quite the same way, and actually wouldn't want to create some sort of hierarchy of 'most influential' etc. (I really dislike those kinds of polls "Best Book of the Century". Wouldn't want to see superlatives become a 'one ring' I guess.)

I didn't first read Tolkien as a teen, though. I must say that his thoughts about fantasy have certainly given me much pause for thought.

EDIT: Well, I'm not sure if it is kosher to copy a post in this way, but I just read Lal's statement on Fordim's, "Are you a better person?" thread and thought it really pertained as well to Mr. U's interest, so here's a link to Lal's Weltanschauung .

[Lalwendë]

Well, seeing as Bethberry copied in my post and Mr Underhill is asking - I underwent a gradual change after first reading Tolkien, wanting to learn more about myth, legend, basically anything remotely 'magical' (in the descriptive sense ). So about three years later I found that the faith I thought was strong, was actually not strong and that it didn't fit me properly. I do not know what Tolkien would think if he knew a reader had actually lost their faith from reading his work - though I'm sure I was not the first.

The odd thing is that I simply did not register all the Christian morality and even imagery in Tolkien's work until many years later. It wasn't that I just thought his books were 'dead cool' (though of course they are ) but that the magical elements swept me away.

Is losing/changing your religion significant? It didn't seem so at the time as nobody really minded. Possibly Tolkien started it off in me, he certainly got me more interested in archaeology and pre-history and what we now term 'new-age' stuff, but maybe I was predisposed to that in the first place?

Judging by my fondness for His Dark Materials and Harry Potter, I reckon I'd have loved Tolkien just as much if I discovered his work in adulthood, but I'm glad I did find those books when I was young as I've had more time to enjoy them.

[Thinlómien]

I've been influenced by Tolkien from a six-year-old, so I really cannot tell, what is Tolkien's influence, and what is from me, or somewhere else... But it's clearly influenced something, but I don't know what, in fact. Perhaps it has made me think that nothing/no one is evil at the beginning, or that nothing is pure evil.

[Iarwain]

Not much time to post, obviously.

I just felt like sharing that Tolkien's works established in my mind a firm belief in absolutes. The sense of direction in all (or most) of the characters' lives leaves a sense that when one looks at the grand scheme of the world, things do make sense.

Also, I've found that Tolkien's writings have influenced me to favor passive suffering (at least in theory). For some strange reason I've come to believe that suffering injustice is in itself a noble thing. I remember seeing a film last year about the life of a central American Archbishop that was martyred (it was called "Romero"). The man had encouraged social organization against the military regime in El Salvador(?). When discussing the movie, I found that everyone else thought that Romero had taken the "high road", while I found myself thinking that he'd taken the easy way out. I still think so, and this (more than the belief in absolutes) is firmly grounded in my experiences in the Lord of the Rings and especially the Silmarillion.

I suppose in summary, these wonderful books have given me a different sense of moral values, a sense that supererogatory goodness is a great virtue.

Wandering off again,
Iarwain

[Dimturiel]

I first read LOTR when I was almost 14 years old and I have to admit that it has changed me completely. It made me be more aware of feelings and moral values that had been until then almost unknown to me, it made me understand life better and it made me cherish the ligth and beauty of this world because the characters that I admired so much had been through so much toil and suffering to keep it there. But this is what all myths and fairy-tales do and maybe this is why we love them so much. In real life we see many horrible things such as murder, treason and so on, and it is more than sad to see what man is doing to this world. And I think that it is a comfort for us to read about bravery, and friendship, and honour, and all the other things that are valued in fairy-tales and in legends. Books like LOTR are places of refuge for those that are tired of the pain and horror that is in their world. It is rather lonely, I know, to say that some characters from a book are your greatest friends, but I have learned more from them than I have learned from any other person in the real world. And I think that if more people read and understood LOTR many of the problems we deal with would be solved.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by J. R. R. Tolkien

At no time can I remember that the enjoyment of a story was dependant on belief that such things could happen or had happened in 'real life'. 'Fairy-stories' were plainly not primarily concerned with possibility, but with desirability. If they awaken a desire, satisfying it while often whetting in unbearably, they succeeded.

This quote from Tolkien really effected my way of looking at literature and, I think, helped me get an A in English literature while all the time criticising the novel we were looking at.

[Mithalwen]

Gandalf's speech about Gollum completely and irrevocably changed my views on Capital Punishment.

It encouraged the "Tookish" side of my nature to win over the "Baggins" (although part of the responsibility for that was my aunt who said when my sister and cousins all married aged 21/22 that I would have to be the family traveller.....I will have to remind her of that the next time she suggests it is about time I settled )

[Bêthberry]

Look -- a eucatastrophe! An unexpected party for the newer set to party on.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Thanks for excavating this thread Beebs.

I don't know about changing or effecting my view on life (or anything beyond) but given that I ended up writing my Master's thesis on Tolkien and that I'm now trying to retool my entire existence so that I can be a writer rather than an academic it would seem that having read the works and admired the writer has guided me in ways I never would have expected when I first encountered Middle-earth at the ripe age of 11.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Thanks for excavating this thread Beebs.

I did it because of Mister Underhill's great sense of vocabulary. . . .

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Also it was a chance to use the word Weltanschauung, which I never pass up. Try it. It's fun. Weltanschauung.

. . . . and because we have more German-speaking Downers now than in the past and I wanted to see what sense they would make of a word which has sounded 'round the world. Really, no one has taken up my alternate suggestion of Sturm und Drang, which I continue to think has Tolkienesque potential.

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

I don't know about changing or effecting my view on life (or anything beyond) but given that I ended up writing my Master's thesis on Tolkien and that I'm now trying to retool my entire existence so that I can be a writer rather than an academic it would seem that having read the works and admired the writer has guided me in ways I never would have expected when I first encountered Middle-earth at the ripe age of 11.

Now this raises an interesting question. Did you take up this ring-work, so to speak, voluntarily, or were you pre-destined to be the bearer of this guidance? Were you free to reject Tolkien's influence or not?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Now this raises an interesting question. Did you take up this ring-work, so to speak, voluntarily, or were you pre-destined to be the bearer of this guidance? Were you free to reject Tolkien's influence or not?

Tra-la-la-la-laleee to you.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Look -- a eucatastrophe! An unexpected party for the newer set to party on.

Hmm... I had to look up eucatastrophe but knew Weltanschauung.... since I have degrees in literature but only a failed O level in German that has now affected my Weltanschauung .. :P

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Hmm... I had to look up eucatastrophe but knew Weltanschauung.... since I have degrees in literature but only a failed O level in German that has now affected my Weltanschauung .. :P

I do hope you looked eucatastrophe up in the right source--Tolkien's OFS. He does that to us all the time, though, doesn't he, with his philological derivations and historical development of words.

[Mithalwen]

No Bethberry I didn't. That would be a slippery slope that might get to make an attempt on threads such as Canonicity...without the help of a sherpa... I looked it up on Wikipedia.

[Nogrod]

Okay... Katastrophe

Originally Posted by The New Testament Greek lexicon

1. overthrow, destruction of cities
2. metaph. of the extinction of a spirit of consecration

Add then the prefix eu which means good.

Whatever Tolkien says...

[Aiwendil]

From the OED:

a. Gr. katastrophe overturning, sudden turn, conclusion, f. kata-strephein to overturn, etc., f. kata down + strephein to turn.

1. ‘The change or revolution which produces the conclusion or final event of a dramatic piece’ (J.); the dénouement.

So neither the etymology nor the first definition requires the sudden turn to be for the worse (what Tolkien called "dyscatastrophe").

[Mithalwen]

*fingers in ears* lahlahlahnotlisteninglahlahlahlah

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

a chance to use the word Weltanschauung, which I never pass up. Try it. It's fun. Weltanschauung.

Indeed, it is fun. Give it a try. How did (or does) Middle-earth affect your worldview?