Character Analysis Thread

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

Did he appeal to a personal situation or a political situation and offer a solution? Did the then also appeal to their ego and personal pride with shades of personal glory?

What do you think Galadriel did? Her test of mind is what fueled Boromir's attempt to take the Ring. Her test awoke that feeling he had when he first saw the One Ring at the Council. Faramir himself confirms that Men seldom walk out of the Golden Wood unchanged-

"You passed through the Hidden Land, said Faramir, but it seems that you little understood its power. If Men have dealings with the Mistress of Magic who dwells in the Golden Wood, then they may look for strange things to follow. For it is perilous for mortal man to walk out of the world of this Sun, and few of old came thence unchanged, ‘tis said." -The Two Towers

Originally Posted by Arathorn

So, would Boromir have been one of the Nine had he lived so many years ago?

No way.

On a side note, isn't this thread supposed to be talking about the relationship between Boromir and Faramir? Everybody seems to be isolating Boromir here.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

What do you think Galadriel did? Her test of mind is what fueled Boromir's attempt to take the Ring. Her test awoke that feeling he had when he first saw the One Ring at the Council. Faramir himself confirms that Men seldom walk out of the Golden Wood unchanged-

"You passed through the Hidden Land, said Faramir, but it seems that you little understood its power. If Men have dealings with the Mistress of Magic who dwells in the Golden Wood, then they may look for strange things to follow. For it is perilous for mortal man to walk out of the world of this Sun, and few of old came thence unchanged, ‘tis said." -The Two Towers

Sorry, but I don't quite understand what you mean.

Are you saying it was Galadriel who instigated Boromir's downfall rather than Boromir's own pride? Are you implying that she was somehow implicated in the Breaking of the Fellowship? Or are you suggesting this is Faramir's interpretation of events, more of his hero worship of his older brother?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Faramir may have confirmed the apparently popular belief that Men do not go through the Golden Wood unchanged -- the Rohirrim also have that belief: "Few escape her nets," says Eomer -- but Aragorn's comment points out the error often in it:

"Say not unscathed, but if you say unchanged, then maybe you will speak the truth... But lore wanes in Gondor, Boromir, if in the city of those who once were wise they now speak evil of Lothlorien."

and

"Perilous indeed," said Aragorn, "fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them."

And Sam later puts his finger on it:

"I don't know about perilous," said Sam. "It strikes me that folk take their peril with them into Lorien, and finds it there because they've brought it. But perhaps you could call her perilous, because she's so strong in herself. You, you could dash yourself to pieces on her, like a ship on a rock; or drownd yourself, like a hobbit in a river. But neither rock nor river would be to blame."

One cannot in any way blame Galadriel for awakening the peril in Boromir's own heart; it was already there, and she in no way put it there. She was, perhaps, involved with that awakening, possibly because Boromir saw in her a strength he himself did not possess -- ultimately, the strength to resist the lure of the Ring. As Sam also says, "it's my opinion that in Lorien he first saw clearly what I guessed sooner: what he wanted." Perhaps in the testing of his heart, Boromir saw in Galadriel the strength of someone who wields an Elven Ring, not clearly realizing that this is what he saw. But perhaps he suspected, or at least entertained the possibility that Galadriel bore one of the Three -- how else could she have such strength and power in her? (a rhetorical question, of course) -- and that made him fully realize that the Ring would give him the strength he needed to protect Gondor and vanquish its great Enemy.

Even so, in the end, he acquitted himself. He could have chosen to continue to pursue Frodo, like another Gollum, until he tracked him down and got the Ring from him. Faramir could have taken the Ring from Frodo by force. They did not. At the last, they resisted the promises and lies of the Ring, went against what they both knew would be the will of their father, and did their greater duty: as a servant and steward of Gondor and those who looked to her for aid. They surpassed their father, who held his duty as being to Gondor alone, and ultimately, he betrayed his own office because he would not accept that it required him to give up his rulership to a rightful heir of the royal line. Denethor believes that Boromir would have "brought him a mighty gift," but I think that he did not know his son quite as well as he thought. Boromir could have pressed on, seized the Ring, and attempted to bring it to his father, but even before his death, he had turned aside from that path. I believe that when he realized what he had done in attempting to take the Ring from Frodo, he saw himself in a mirror and did not like what he saw. He understood that the real peril was the Ring and its lies, and turned away from it. He did not reject it with the seeming ease of Faramir (and I say seeming because I think Faramir struggled with this much more than we saw in the story) -- but he did reject it; it was not simply removed from his grasp. The evidence of this is in his dying words: "I have paid." He knew he had done wrong, and did what he could to right his "sin." If Boromir had survived the battle that day, he would have had to answer to his father for letting the Ring out of his grasp when he eventually came to Minas Tirith. And I suspect that on that day, Denethor would have felt disappointed and betrayed by both his sons.

Just my two cents, as always.

[Bêthberry]

Thanks for those two cents worth, Ibrîniðilpathânezel--more than two cents' worth I would say. You've picked some of the very quotes I would have from the text to explain Galadriel's power.

However, I was more interested in what MatthewM was implying in response to the quote he gave from ArathornJax, particularly since he substituted Galadriel for AJ's original question of Sauron's MO.

Originally Posted by MatthewM

What do you think Galadriel did? Her test of mind is what fueled Boromir's attempt to take the Ring. Her test awoke that feeling he had when he first saw the One Ring at the Council. Faramir himself confirms that Men seldom walk out of the Golden Wood unchanged-

This was AJ original question:

Originally Posted by AJ

However, I wonder if this is how Sauron tempted some of the Nine in terms of getting them to accept their ring of power? Did he appeal to a personal situation or a political situation and offer a solution? Did the then also appeal to their ego and personal pride with shades of personal glory?

If Galadriel was able to test Boromir that way, why could not Sauron? And if Boromir fell to Galadriel's test, would he not then also be likely to fall to a similar one from Sauron? So it makes it more likely Boromir, speaking of course always hypothetically as most of our discussions here are, would have fallen similarly to become one of the Nine.

Yet I don't think that's what many Downers would think?

[MatthewM]

I'm well aware of those quotes, Ibrîniðilpathânezel, but I was making a point. Galadriel did everything that AJ's question asked. She offered Boromir a solution to his want to do good and save his people. We aren't told that flat out, because Boromir does not openly say what Galadriel offered him when she tested all of them with her mind. One can safely assume, however, that is was the command of the Ring, in turn saving Gondor and his people.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

However, I was more interested in what MatthewM was implying in response to the quote he gave from ArathornJax, particularly since he substituted Galadriel for AJ's original question of Sauron's MO.

I wasn't saying it was Galadriel's fault that Boromir fell to the Ring. Yet, I can't help but think what would have happened if The Fellowship hadn't passed through Lorien. Am I implying that Galadriel had a hand in the Breaking of the Fellowship? Yes, sure. For it was only after Lorien that Boromir's lust was really awoken, regardless if he carried it with him since the Council. It was never made apparent until The Great River - after the tempting of Galadriel. I was not speaking through Faramir's view, because it was not just Faramir's view that Men came out of Lorien unchanged. It was Boromir's as well, along with the rest of Gondor.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

If Galadriel was able to test Boromir that way, why could not Sauron? And if Boromir fell to Galadriel's test, would he not then also be likely to fall to a similar one from Sauron? So it makes it more likely Boromir, speaking of course always hypothetically as most of our discussions here are, would have fallen similarly to become one of the Nine.
Yet I don't think that's what many Downers would think?

There would be a huge difference, in my opinion, in being tested by a virtuous Elf lady (even if she is suspicious) and being tested by the Dark Lord. No, I do not believe Boromir would have fell to be one of the Nine. That kind of question really is not going to lead anywhere, really...it is so hypothetical and I think what I think, others think what they think.

Again, the discussion is supposed to be about the relationship between Boromir and Faramir, and everyone continues to isolate Boromir.

[ArathornJax]

In speaking of both Faramir and Boromir, this quote by Gandalf at Minis Tirith to Pippin about the Lord Denethor I have found interesting:

"He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir, whom he loved best."

If Denethor's heritage is from Westernesse (mixed with other houses since coming to Middle Earth) and in him the blood of Westernesse runs true, and it also runs true in Faramir, then what did Tolkien mean that it did not do so in Boromir? Does this account for some of the differences between Faramir and Boromir? How did Faramir's blood run true but how did Boromir not run true? Thoughts would be appreciated as I am thinking on this since I read it last night.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

In speaking of both Faramir and Boromir, this quote by Gandalf at Minis Tirith to Pippin about the Lord Denethor I have found interesting:

"He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir, whom he loved best."

If Denethor's heritage is from Westernesse (mixed with other houses since coming to Middle Earth) and in him the blood of Westernesse runs true, and it also runs true in Faramir, then what did Tolkien mean that it did not do so in Boromir? Does this account for some of the differences between Faramir and Boromir? How did Faramir's blood run true but how did Boromir not run true? Thoughts would be appreciated as I am thinking on this since I read it last night.

AJ, all due respect- it's spelt Minas Tirith.

As to your question- it is scientifically/biologically impossible that Boromir would not have the same blood running through his veins as Denethor and Faramir. That quote has given many people questions but the fact must be that Tolkien was talking about the personage of the three characters, not physical blood. Boromir was a true Numenorean in everything but mind. He did not really have the mental qualities that Faramir had. That is what that quote means.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If Galadriel was able to test Boromir that way, why could not Sauron? And if Boromir fell to Galadriel's test, would he not then also be likely to fall to a similar one from Sauron? So it makes it more likely Boromir, speaking of course always hypothetically as most of our discussions here are, would have fallen similarly to become one of the Nine.

Yet I don't think that's what many Downers would think?

I do agree whole-heartedly with Bêthberry. I have little doubt that Boromir would have become one of the Nine, had he lived back in the mid-Second age. He was a great man, seeking power and glory, he needed the Ring to save his country - so he wouldn't have refused the offer. Moreover, please note, that unlike Boromir, the future nazgul had no idea what kind of Rings they were offered and most likely they didn't even know that it was Sauron who was offering them (at least it applies to Numenorean nazgul). The Elves were most secretive about the Rings - they never told the Numenoreans what all this conflict with Sauron was about. Not even Ar-Pharazon heard about the Rings - so we can be pretty sure about those before him.
The future nazgul were men of the ilk of Tar-Aldarion and Isildur and Boromir and Aragorn - that's why Sauron went to such lengths to entice them. And he succeeded.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I do agree whole-heartedly with Bêthberry. I have little doubt that Boromir would have become one of the Nine, had he lived back in the mid-Second age. He was a great man, seeking power and glory, he needed the Ring to save his country - so he wouldn't have refused the offer. Moreover, please note, that unlike Boromir, the future nazgul had no idea what kind of Rings they were offered and most likely they didn't even know that it was Sauron who was offering them (at least it applies to Numenorean nazgul). The Elves were most secretive about the Rings - they never told the Numenoreans what all this conflict with Sauron was about. Not even Ar-Pharazon heard about the Rings - so we can be pretty sure about those before him.
The future nazgul were men of the ilk of Tar-Aldarion and Isildur and Boromir and Aragorn - that's why Sauron went to such lengths to entice them. And he succeeded.

Let me just clarify something about what I meant, as I certainly don't wish to cast any spurious charges at Galadriel. From my reading, I would not say that Galadriel was in any way responsible for Boromir's fall. Certainly she tested men by showing them something true about themselves, possibly some sort of desire or feltwish that they were unaware of and which could influence them unseemingly. And so she offers men the chance to become aware of their own weaknesses and proclivities. I think those quotations which Ibrin provides give a very clear sense that Galadriel was not at fault for planting evil ideas in people's minds. The story is full of evidence of Boromir's rashness, pride, vanity, along with his many sterling qualities before he ever meets up with the Lady of Lothlorien.

There is a point, however, where I do agree with Gordis and it is in this: since Boromir failed Galadriel's test and did not take heed of his own pride and vanity, he would also have been a very likely candidate to fall to the wiles of Sauron, who of course never identified himself as Evil Incarnate in his efforts to entrap the Nine. Many can no doubt avoid temptation when it knocks them over the head (if they wish), but not so many can easily recognise the siren call when it is cunningly whispered. I think Fordim ran an RPG about this very topic, which now rests in Elvenhome: Shadow of the West. rpg of course aren't 'canon' but they do explore a topic in interesting ways and I think this game shows particularly how a powerful, well intentioned man could fall to the Dark Emissary.


And I think that Gandalf's words about Faramir and Boromir, which ArathornJax quotes, are meant metaphorically to refer to Faramir's mental state as the true heir. I think it is fairly clear what Gandalf's thoughts are about the two sons.

Although I must here admit that I am more prone to spelling the White City Minus Tirith, as I have this unfortunate reading stuck in mind about a place referred to in this august forum as Minus Teeth.

[Gordis]

Curious that you have posted the link to the "Shadow of the West", Bethberry, as I have (quite independently) spent three evenings reading this RPG. I have just finished. Great story: I loved all of it but the very ending...

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think it is fairly clear what Gandalf's thoughts are about the two sons.

Well obviously he prefered Faramir, for Faramir was the "wizard's pupil" (nothing wrong with that) but I do not think he disliked Boromir at all. Sure, Boromir called him out on a few things, such as when Gandalf could not think of the password to Moria. There's nothing wrong with that...this guy who has been all over the place and knows so many tricks and spells can't open this door, and this foul pool is really getting to me. What gives? I would have called him out on it too. If Gandalf was so understanding, like we think he probably was, he would let it slide I'm sure.

It's also made very apparent that Gandalf showed true pity towards Boromir. After he returned from the grave and found Legolas, Aragorn, and Gimli he said to them upon hearing of Boromir's fall-

"Poor Boromir! I could not see what happened to him. It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men. Galadriel told me that he was in peril. But he escaped in the end. I am glad.

Even Gandalf knew Boromir was a lord of men, and that he passed the test in the end.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel, I do not have enough knowledge of genes and science to take you up on this, but I must say that Gandalf must have been talking metaphorically. There's no way Boromir and Faramir didn't share the same blood.