Where is Aeglos?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Rumil

I always wondered if Aiglos was more of a lance, I could imagine Gil-Galad on a splendidly caparisoned charger weilding a rather special spear, probably with a bue and white (or silver/mithril) pennon. I guess you might say this theory would fall down if he couldn't get his horse up Mount Doom, but there you go.

If I remember correctly Elves don't use saddles, & if this is the case with G-G he wouldn't have been able to use a lance ('cos any impact would have thrown him over his horse's rear end, having nothing to hold him on) - you need a saddle &, specifically, stirrups to use one. Also, Anglo-Saxon warriors for instance even up to Hastings didn't fight on horseback, merely using then to get to the battleground & then fighting on foot (This is a major difference between the A-S & the Rohirrim) so you can't assume that just because a warrior rides into battle that he fights on horseback.

All that said, Tolkien does state that G-G had a 'lance' ('His sword was long, his lance was keen') but whether this 'lance' was Aiglos or not is another question.

[Gordis]

Actually, the only Elven horse we see up close - Asfaloth - did have a saddle and stirrups. Thus Glorfindel could use a lance in a normal way. Why not Gil-Galad?

But there is another thing I remember: each of the peoples of the Eldar were associated with specific weapons:

Morgoth's Ring; The later Quenta Silmarillion:
Other names in song and tale are given to these peoples. The Vanyar are the Blessed Elves, and the Spear Elves, The Elves of Air, the friends of the Gods, the Holy Elves and the Immortal, and the Children of Ingwe; they are the Fair Folk and the White
The Noldor are the Wise, and the Golden, the Valiant, the Sword-elves, the Elves of Earth, the Foes of Melkor, the Skilled of Hand, the Jewel-wrights, the Companions of Men, the Followers of Finwe
The Teleri are the Foam-riders, the Singers of the Shore, the Free, and the Swift, and the Arrow-Elves; they are the Elves of the Sea, the Ship-wrights, the Swanherders, the Gatherers of Pearl, the Blue Elves, the people of Olwe.

So, a spear is a weapon assciated with the Vanyar. Gil-Galad was at least partly Vanya (through Indis), maybe he had more Vanyar blood: because we don't know, I think (?), of what people were Angrod's and Orodreth's wives.
Anyway, it may well be that a Vanyarin lance had been brought to ME by Fingolfin and Finarfin's people and later passed as heirloom to Gil-Galad?

I agree with Mithadan: what remained of Aiglos would likely be sent to Valinor to await G-G's reincarnation.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Actually, the only Elven horse we see up close - Asfaloth - did have a saddle and stirrups. Thus Glorfindel could use a lance in a normal way. Why not Gil-Galad?

Its not clear whether Elves used saddles & stirrups generally - Asfaloth did, as you say, have one but it appears from other statements they did not:

A smaller and lighter horse, but restive and fiery, was brought to Legolas. Arod was his name. But Legolas asked them to take off saddle and rein. "I need them not," he said, and leaped lightly up, and to their wonder Arod was tame and willing beneath him, ...'Riders of Rrohan' TT.

"I did not know you rode bare-back, Gandalf," he said. 'You haven't a saddle or a bridle!" "I do not ride elf-fashion, except on Shadowfax," said Gandalf. "But Shadowfax will have no harness. 'The Palantir' TT

Of course, it may be that in battle, or at need, they would use them.

btw, we know Tolkien did a bit of re-thinking re the harness of Asfaloth - in the 1st edition text he wears a bit & bridle, whereas in the 2nd ed. its changed to a headstall.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by davem

Its not clear whether Elves used saddles & stirrups generally - Asfaloth did, as you say, have one but it appears from other statements they did not:

True- but Legolas was a Sinda, kin to Teleri "arrow-elves". And indeed he was first and foremost an archer.
Oropher's (and likely later Thranduil's) troops were generally not too well armed, thus suffered great losses in the Last Alliance. Maybe riding bare-back was another drawback preventing them to use lances and fight as mounted knights. I always thought of them as foot-soldiers.

"I did not know you rode bare-back, Gandalf," he said. 'You haven't a saddle or a bridle!" "I do not ride elf-fashion, except on Shadowfax," said Gandalf. "But Shadowfax will have no harness. 'The Palantir' TT

Even the remaining Noldor have adapted Sindarin language instead of Quenia: maybe they also adapted Sindarin customs as to riding (at least not in battle). Anyway Sindar and Silvan Elves far outnumbered the High Elves by the end of the TA, thus riding bareback may have been known as "Elf-fashion".

Originally Posted by davem

btw, we know Tolkien did a bit of re-thinking re the harness of Asfaloth - in the 1st edition text he wears a bit & bridle, whereas in the 2nd ed. its changed to a headstall.

Yes, I remember that (didn't he rewrite because a reader send him a letter questioning Asfaloth's bridle?").
Glorfindel may have had some Vanyar blood -wasn't he golden-haired like Vanyar?
But it is evident that Glorfindel meant to fight the nazgul on horseback as mounted knight, not on foot (Gandalf: "On foot even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could not withstand all the Nine at once."-LOTR, Many meetings). So Glorfindel set out from Rivendell prepared for battle: that may explain the use of the saddle etc. Curious though: we are not told what weapons Glorfindel carried: was there a sword or a lance maybe? Or - knowing that there was no surer way to destroy a weapon than sticking it into a nazgul, he went unarmed, relying only on his Power in the Unseen?

[davem]

Of course, the other aspect to take into account is culture & tradition:

Anglo-Saxons, unlike the Continental German tribes such as the Franks and the Goths, do not appear to have regularly fought on horseback. The poem about the battle of Maldon in AD 991 makes it clear that many of the warriors had ridden to the battlefield but then dismounted and fought on foot. Indeed Byrhtnoth, the leader of the Saxons, gave orders to drive away the horses so that there would be no thought of retreat. Only his own horse was kept so that he could use it to ride around the battlefield. When Byrhtnoth was killed and a large part of the army routed one of the fugitives took his horse to speed his escape. Another account, albeit even later, is the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle entry for 1055. This records how the Herefordshire fyrd, in battle with the Welsh, fled before a single spear was thrown because they had been ordered to fight on horseback, contrary to their custom (Anglos contra morem in equis pugnare jussit). There are occasional references in Anglo-Saxon histories to mounted forces, such as the Northumbrian king Ecgfrith's expedition of horsemen (equitatui) sent against the Picts which is mentioned in the biography of Bishop Wilfrid. However, these do not make clear whether the force fought mounted or dismounted. 'Equitates' is the general Latin term for mounted soldiers as opposed to the word 'ala' which is used only of cavalry. Underwood: Anglo-Saxon Weapons and Warfare

We don't know whether 'Elvish' battle tactics in all periods/situations included fighting on horseback - Anglo-Saxon warriors could have learned mounted combat (like the Rohirrim), but that simply 'wasn't their style'. It may be that at the time of the Last Alliance the Elves didn't fight on horseback - & probably if they didn't use saddles they wouldn't have - Shadowfax may have been able to keep Gandalf on his back in any circumstances but I get the sense that Shadowfax is a pretty unique horse. A bareback cavalry charge is a recipe for disaster. In fact, mounted combat of any kind is incredibly difficult without saddle & stirrups. And let's not ignore the possibility that the Elves may not have wanted horses on the battlefield.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by davem

A bareback cavalry charge is a recipe for disaster. In fact, mounted combat of any kind is incredibly difficult without saddle & stirrups.

I was thinking the same thing. Having been involved with Civil War Reenacting, I've seen plenty of people on horseback enter into a staged "battle" and still have problems staying on the horse when "combat" was engaged -- and they weren't fighting with high-impact weapons like a lance. Lack of experience of course can account for this, but it seems to me that even the greatest Elven rapport between man and beast can't make up for the laws of physics when a collision occurs. I'm more inclined to think that the Elves, having such strong affinity toward other creatures, would not have been inclined to take many of their horses into battle, unless the animal was willing, and in that willing to suffer whatever was needed for the protection of itself and its rider -- including such things as saddles and barding. The only other culture I can think of that did fight from horseback without saddles were certain Native Americans, and to the best of my knowledge, they fought that way largely by using projectile or thrown weapons in a running attack, which would allow them to stay on their mounts because there would be no impact to push them off.

That said, I seem to recall a reference somewhere to the fact that Gil-galad was burned to death by Sauron. If that was so, and he was holding Aiglos at the time, it's likely that not much of it really survived. Perhaps the point, which may be kept somewhere, likely with Elrond or Cirdan. I tend to think that it did not survive intact. Tolkien seems to have a fondness for the symbolism of the breaking of the weapon when a noted character falls in battle. Even the sword of the Balrog of Moria was broken when its fall was imminent. Glamdring probably survived only because he know Gandalf was coming back very soon and would have need of it.

[skip spence]

Regarding elves fighting on horseback an episode with Beren, Luthien and two sons of Feanor (was it Curufin and Celegorm?) might offer some clues. I've no access to an English version of Silmarillion now so I can't offer any quotes but this is how I remember the episode (please correct me if I'm wrong):

By chance, the brothers find Beren & Luthien strolling in the woods and one of them rides them down in full speed to grab Luthien, sweeping her up on his horse. I don't remember if a saddle is mentioned, and know next to nothing about horseback riding, but this strikes me as impossible to pull of without reins, stirrups and a saddle to hold on to. Beren then leaps up and grabs the Feanorian, and they tumble down on the ground. At this point the other brother comes charging in with spear in hand, but Huan saves Beren life by frightening the hourse.

So at least some elves rode with saddles and were accomplished fighting on horseback. Mind you, this doesn't prove the elves had cavalry - these fellows might have been on a hunting trip - but I do think it proves some elves rode with saddles etc.