A Query...

[Bêthberry]

The same way European countries did it, using the sleight of hand of "privateers." The example of England is particularly appropriate here, especially once England officially renounced the slave trade but still allowed independent naval entrepreneurs to engage in the trade.

If Aragorn ran into so much trouble so quickly into the 4th Age, the existence of these kinds of freelance entrepreneurs might account for some of his troubles in bringing social order about. Who wants taxes inforced upon them?

[Eönwë]

I wonder... what about tariffs.. or was Tolkiens world full of freedom in trade. He mentions money nowhere.

Wait, that deservves its own thread if there is not one already about it. Money.

edit: wait, it does mention money, sorry. Thinking that made me lose focus in what I was saying (Its late now and I'll probably continue tomorrow)

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The same way European countries did it, using the sleight of hand of "privateers." The example of England is particularly appropriate here, especially once England officially renounced the slave trade but still allowed independent naval entrepreneurs to engage in the trade.

You have hit on a very good point Bêthberry. Gondor might have for a time paid the Corsairs of Umbar to stop attacking their vessals, like the European nations did in 1803.

Hmm... and what of the dwarves? I'm pretty sure that they may have had dealings with the Easterlings at one time.

[Eönwë]

Well, Groin, I'm sure in the original Legendarium they did, being evil, but after they became a good race, who knows.

They probably did dthough, because everyone likes a bit of gold in the end (or a the very least some sort of metal) and the dwarves were all tooo happy to sell it (except for the gold) seems like I'm contradicting myself. Anyway, what would they want from the Easterlings?

[Alfirin]

It is obivios at least some trade was conducted between the "light" and "dark", nations, as there were at least some goods amoung the free people which could only habe been obtained from such trade. For example I seem to recall Tolkeing saying I think it was in the UT version of "tour and his coming to gondlin" that one of the great Gondolin swords (Glamidring I believe) had either a hilt or sheath made of "ruel bone" which Tolkein notes as being the middle earth term for ivory. This ivory would have (probably) had to come from elephants (Mumakul) which unless, they ranged far wider in the first age than in the third, would mean at least some trade with the people of the lands which later became Far Harad even among the elves. I suppose the ivory could of been walrus too but that would mean trade with the Forodwaith who seemed to have little to do with the outside world even in the first age.
Beyond the "look the other way" trade suggested I would imagine that at most border lands there were trading posts and "free cites" places swaring allegiance to nethier The west nor the east, but allowing merchants from either to meet in (comparitive) safety and security.

[radagastly]

In the "Unexpected Party," Bilbo served coffee to the dwarves (or at least, they requested it, knowing it was available.) Coffee does not grow in the same climate as tobacco, and the Shire was famous for growing tobacco. It stands to reason that the coffee was imported from some jungle-like, southern land, where coffee grows easily. Clearly, some kind of trade existed between (at least) the Shire and some of the Sothron lands, from which the coffee must have come. I imagine the dwarves of the Blue Mountains trading with the shipbuilders of the Grey Havens for passage (at least) if not ownership of the actual ships they needed to use. After all, just because the elves built ships to the undying lands doesn't mean they didn't also build very sea-worthy ships for sale to the highest bidders for other purposes in the Middle-Earth vicinity. As much as most of them hated boats, the dwarves of the Blue Mountains had spent an age living within sight of the sea. They must surely have gotten over their water fears by then. They could (and would) have easily sailed south far enough to trade for the goods that would maximize their profit from the voyage, as any good trader would.

Certainly, Gondor was founded by seafaring people, and they would have kept that knowledge and skill as long as they could continue to foster it. Did the Prince of Dol Amroth keep a fleet of trading ships all the way into the end of the third age? It seems very likely to me. What else (aside from personal dignity) would keep his Principality at such a level of dignity and respect if he did not provide some genuine value to the kingdom of Gondor? A lucrative trade in exotic spices and goods of all kinds seems a likely source of wealth for a coastal city-state such as Dol Amroth.

Of course, I'm only guessing. I cannot cite a single quote to back up any of these theories. It all seems pretty logical to me, though.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by radagastly

In the "Unexpected Party," Bilbo served coffee to the dwarves (or at least, they requested it, knowing it was available.) Coffee does not grow in the same climate as tobacco, and the Shire was famous for growing tobacco. It stands to reason that the coffee was imported from some jungle-like, southern land, where coffee grows easily. Clearly, some kind of trade existed between (at least) the Shire and some of the Sothron lands, from which the coffee must have come. I imagine the dwarves of the Blue Mountains trading with the shipbuilders of the Grey Havens for passage (at least) if not ownership of the actual ships they needed to use. After all, just because the elves built ships to the undying lands doesn't mean they didn't also build very sea-worthy ships for sale to the highest bidders for other purposes in the Middle-Earth vicinity. As much as most of them hated boats, the dwarves of the Blue Mountains had spent an age living within sight of the sea. They must surely have gotten over their water fears by then. They could (and would) have easily sailed south far enough to trade for the goods that would maximize their profit from the voyage, as any good trader would.

Well I must oppose here. The Hobbits also lived quite a long time not that far from the Sea, yet they never dared to go there. I can't possibly imagine a Dwarf stepping on a boat unless he were Gimli forced by his duties, or by Aragorn, or seeing some nice heads to chop aboard (but hoping to get off as soon as possible). And the idea of Círdan trading ship with them seems odd at least. No, I am sure the Dwarves had their part in it if it came to trade, and it may well be that they supplied coffee to the Shire, but through some nice, old-fashioned ways on the land. A Dwarf could take a pony caravan and supply coffee from the East, or from some Dunland to where the coffee came from elsewhere in the South. I am sure the sea-ways were not safer than the overland route, and especially not for Dwarves, who never were mariners.

Asides from that, I think Tolkien's proverbial anachronisms are to blame, but I am not willing to talk about that here: the coffee was in the Shire and now how to explain it. In the way the coffee is handled in the Shire, I would actually presume that coffee actually was cultivated somewhere in, or at least near the Shire. Had it come all the way from let's say Far Harad, it would have been quite a rare thing. Yet Bilbo does not worry about serving it to a band of Dwarves he hardly even knows. Of course he was a rich hobbit, but no one tells us that the guests were super-excited when they saw such a rare thing as coffee being served.

And speaking of it, what about tea? That was even more common, everywhere; and it surely can't grow everywhere as well.

Originally Posted by radagastly

Certainly, Gondor was founded by seafaring people, and they would have kept that knowledge and skill as long as they could continue to foster it. Did the Prince of Dol Amroth keep a fleet of trading ships all the way into the end of the third age? It seems very likely to me. What else (aside from personal dignity) would keep his Principality at such a level of dignity and respect if he did not provide some genuine value to the kingdom of Gondor? A lucrative trade in exotic spices and goods of all kinds seems a likely source of wealth for a coastal city-state such as Dol Amroth.

This sounds very plausible, though.

[Thinlómien]

Now, I find this topic very interesting, possibly because I've lately been planning some things for an RPG and have realised I should probably know about these things...

I agree with more or less everybody on this thread: it is probable that tarde between these nations existed. I can very well see Gondorian nobility using luxury products that have been brought from Harad or far Eastern lands. Ivory, silk, spices maybe even hides of exotic animals. What the Kings or Stewards thought, or whether this trade was official or legal, that I don't know. I can very well see it being banned at least from time to time.

As for coffee, it has been discussed in this thread, Coffee!, to a great extent. Maybe some of you will find that interesting. What I said on the thread was

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

What if it is this simple: in Tolkien's Middle-Earth coffee grew in colder climate than in our world? Wouldn't be the only difference between the two worlds.

I mean, if a book has elves, hobbits, dwarves and orcs etc prancing around (not to mention balrogs and such) is it really any wonder that in such a world coffee may grow in a different climate than in our world?

and I still think that reasonable enough an explanation. Of course it can be argued...