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Old 03-17-2008, 03:47 AM   #1
Legate of Amon Lanc
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#7 What the battle looked like

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Originally Posted by ArathornJax View Post
In terms of the attack on Dol Guldur, I am believe this assault was on Sauron by the members of the Council, and not a physical attack with an army on the fortress. From below we know that the purpose was to force Sauron out of Dol Guldur and they did that. However the fortress remained (see below for more of this).
(...)
So I did and I feel good that this was an attack of personal strength against Sauron because Dol Guldur was not thrown down in 2941, and remained standing until Celeborn took it after Sauron's defeat and Galadrial came forth and threw down its walls according to Unfinished Tales and Appendix A. If the Council had actually physically assaulted Dol Guldur in 2941 with themselves and an army, I would have imagined they would have done this at this point to prevent Sauron from having a stronghold to the north of Mordor), Sauron allowed them to "win" since it met his purposes. The next year the fortress was again occupied by a Ringwraith and evil returned to Mirkwood.
(...)
Saruman used some of his "devices" but we do not know what they were. I don't think they were anything to blow up the fortress or it would have been eliminated per above. I think these devices were something he discovered in his studying of the rings, and he revealed it so he could get what he wanted, Sauron out of the Anduin and Gladden Fields areas.
You bring a good point that Dol Guldur's fortress very probably was not destroyed. However, I don't think not destroying the fortress does not exclude the possibility of an armed attack. The attackers might have came to Dol Guldur, stormed the gates, run inside, destroy all that came in the way, but after Sauron left and the Orcs and all other creatures fled, they considered their mission fulfiled (we know they did) and left the empty fortress in the woods alone. Years later, after Sauron's final demise, they did not repeat this mistake and destroyed Dol Guldur just for the sake of it. (And there's also the possibility that Galadriel at that time acted wiser than Saruman before, as Saruman was surely the one in lead of the attack, and maybe when Galadriel said they should uncover the dungeons of Dol Guldur and destroy the fortress, he said "Nonsense, we are going home" and that was it.)
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Old 03-17-2008, 12:10 PM   #2
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Three things that I would love to know more about would be:

1. Was there any discussion, debate or verbal confrontation between the White Council and Sauron? Possibly before the military "assault" on Dol Guldur was launched?

2. (Apologies if this had already been addressed, I'm still reading through the thread...) Did the White Council realize that they were dealing with Sauron? Or did they think that they were driving out a previously unknown threat (i.e., "The Necromancer")? Was their goal to utterly defeat Sauraon/Necromancer? Drive him out of Greenwood? Or simply just to post-pone his inevitable re-emergence in M-e?

3. When Gandalf arrived at Dol Guldur, did he explain his tardiness to the rest of the White Council in something along the lines of, "Sorry I'm late... I was just creatively re-interpreting my Istari mandate of not directly interfering by arranging the murder of (the last) dragon and instigating a War of Five Armies?"
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Old 03-17-2008, 12:52 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Sardy View Post
1. Was there any discussion, debate or verbal confrontation between the White Council and Sauron? Possibly before the military "assault" on Dol Guldur was launched?
You mean, any "diplomacy talks" or such things? Not sure how it would've looked like. Though maybe... well, I don't think there is anything about it. Maybe in HoME, if ever.

Quote:
2. (Apologies if this had already been addressed, I'm still reading through the thread...) Did the White Council realize that they were dealing with Sauron? Or did they think that they were driving out a previously unknown threat (i.e., "The Necromancer")? Was their goal to utterly defeat Sauraon/Necromancer? Drive him out of Greenwood? Or simply just to post-pone his inevitable re-emergence in M-e?
They knew it was Sauron since Gandalf visited Dol Guldur for the second time. Their goal was to get rid of him - definitely to prevent him from rising, to drive him away from Mirkwood, and they counted on at least diminishing his power and stopping him for several hundred or thousand years to come.

Quote:
3. When Gandalf arrived at Dol Guldur, did he explain his tardiness to the rest of the White Council in something along the lines of, "Sorry I'm late... I was just creatively re-interpreting my Istari mandate of not directly interfering by arranging the murder of (the last) dragon and instigating a War of Five Armies?"
He arrived on time - and not to Dol Guldur, but to the Council, possibly Lórien. That can be concluded from his words:
Quote:
Originally Posted by UT, The Quest for Erebor
I had to be with the White Council in August at the latest, or Saruman would have his way and nothing would be done.
Of course he didn't know that Saruman wanted to attack as well already, but that's a side issue.
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Old 03-19-2008, 02:01 AM   #4
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Members of the white council

I am surprised reading this that there is any confusion over Celeborn i.e. was he/was he not a member of the White council. you only have to check the Lord of the Rings itself to see confirmation that he must have been a member.

Ref Page 357 of the Harper Collins 50th Anniversary edition (Chapter "the mirror of Galadriel")

Galadriel says ' For the lord of the Galadhrim (Celeborn) is accounted the wisest of the elves of Middle-Earth'

It would be strange indeed if the white council (of the wise) excluded the wisest elf of all and husband of one of its members !!!!
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Old 03-19-2008, 02:37 AM   #5
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Galadriel says ' For the lord of the Galadhrim (Celeborn) is accounted the wisest of the elves of Middle-Earth'

It would be strange indeed if the white council (of the wise) excluded the wisest elf of all and husband of one of its members !!!!
There is no "confusion", as you put it. It would be likely, yes (although there is the argument I mentioned before - although it has probably as much value as the one you mention). But the point is that there is not explicitely written anywhere that he was a member of the Council. Strange it would be indeed, but even with your quote you can't say 100% "it is like that". Someone may still disagree and you'll have no bulletproof argument to convince him.
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