The Scourge of The Dark Side...Tolkien and Modernism

[Bêthberry]

No time for anything other than a quick scan of this interesting thread, so I'll have to refrain from making any large scale declarations. (Lucky you!)

I notice, however, that writers such as Joyce, Lawrence, Eliot and Peake are mentioned as exemplars of literary modernism. One writer who hasn't been mentioned is Virginia Woolf.

Just a few titles in case anyone is interested in checking out her presentation of consciousness: Mrs. Dalloway, To the Lighthouse, and, particularly, The Waves.

Given that Tolkien does not present--and is not interested in depicting--this form of the interiority of thought--he would seem to fall on t'other side from Woolf--but I'm not getting into any definition wars!

[Nerwen]

But getting back to the original question– by what logic does Star Wars exemplify modernism? Any ideas?

[tumhalad2]

Some incredibly intersting stuff there guys-wow! Philosophy is so interesting!

As to Star Wars, Nerwen, I'm not sure it exemplifies modernist values any more that the Lord of the Rings, and though Im a fan of Star Wars I will go so far as to say that Tolkien, with his inserted, somewhat surprising, modernist ideas about death and the like perhaps takes his universe to a level Lucas never achieved.

However, I do not want to get into a debate about the merits of each franchise; that is what these other forumers did and look how that turned out!! Not that that would happen here, but still...

In response to your question, skip spense David Brin may be a little pretentious but I do not think he is a fool-his opinions need to be considered, in other words. At times I have thought that his ideas were so overwhelmingly 'right' that Tolkien seemed a blemish on my palate of interest, but then I quickly come to...It was probably in such a downcast mood that I wrote the first post!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Star War's 'depth' in a nutshell: Obi-Wan screaming at Anakin/Vader that he was sworn to defend.... democracy!


Now if Lucas can't figure out that democracy is not a goal but merely a system directed towards that goal, then he has no claim on depth of thought.

[Nerwen]

Say what you like about StarDestroyer.net, it brings much joy. What follows is a genuine, unaltered quote.

I often tell people Shakespeare sucks because there is no way a real human being ever spoke like that.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But getting back to the original question– by what logic does Star Wars exemplify modernism? Any ideas?

Since my post in reply to this was lost out on Route 69, I'll repost it here:

Star Wars exemplifies modernism through a glorious delight in machinery and a broad faith in technology as well as The Force.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Since my post in reply to this was lost out on Route 69, I'll repost it here:

Star Wars exemplifies modernism through a glorious delight in machinery and a broad faith in technology as well as The Force.

Must be why I love it so much...

However, the technology in Star Wars tends to be more of a backdrop to the story. In fact some purists consider it not to be "real" sci-fi for this reason. (Well, that, and the way the laws of physics get flouted.)

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Must be why I love it so much...

However, the technology in Star Wars tends to be more of a backdrop to the story. In fact some purists consider it not to be "real" sci-fi for this reason. (Well, that, and the way the laws of physics get flouted.)

I'm not so sure it is a backdrop. Luke's fascination with flying his racer through the canyons is one important aspect of his character and also one that ensures his victory at the conclusion of A New Hope. That fascination comes straight out of Lucas' love affair with the automobile--think American Graffitti. Think also of Han Solo's "special modifications" made to the Millenium Falcon and how that is highlighted when Leia treats it to a sarcastic remark--was that the start of their love affair? I can't imagine Tolkien or Frodo or any of the other hobbits engaging in that kind of love affair with machinery. There could be dwarves who might delight in sledding down cave tunnels, but it wouldn't be powered the same.

I suppose R2D2 and 3PO could be Mutt and Jeff or a human comedic duo, but for me part of the delight in their characters lies in their robotic nature--or its interface with their human aspects. I dreamed of having my own R2D2 to do housework and still have an R2D2 cookie jar which lovingly has never been used, but is carefully wrapped and put away like good china. I don't think 3PO would be as funny if he were merely an abnoxious human, but being a robotic linguist as well as an English butler makes him delightfully entertaining.

Granted lots of the technology, especially the wonky bits, beongs to the Dark Side, but even the great glorification of special effects which Star Wars initiated represents a paen to technology. Someday, and someday soon, a Gollem won't need an Andy, and the current fascination with that began with SW.

As for the laws of gravity, they're a bit like Rodney Dangerfield, eh?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm not so sure it is a backdrop. Luke's fascination with flying his racer through the canyons is one important aspect of his character and also one that ensures his victory at the conclusion of A New Hope. That fascination comes straight out of Lucas' love affair with the automobile--think American Graffitti. Think also of Han Solo's "special modifications" made to the Millenium Falcon and how that is highlighted when Leia treats it to a sarcastic remark--was that the start of their love affair? I can't imagine Tolkien or Frodo or any of the other hobbits engaging in that kind of love affair with machinery.

Yes, but I said "more of a backdrop". Obviously Lucas loves technology... but the story isn't really about it, not in the way "hard SF" is. I mean, you could transplant much of the plot into a pure fantasy setting with minimal changes. (Isn't A New Hope supposed to be based heavily on a samurai film?)

EDIT: Perhaps I should say, "pure sci-fi". "Hard sci-fi" is supposed to be actually plausible– with the result that practically nothing qualifies.

[tumhalad2]

ok guys here is another ingredient we can add to the mix: some intersting articles that contrast somewhat to Brin et al..

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/ID24Aa01.html

there are links to this guys two other articles at the bottom of that page

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, but I said "more of a backdrop". Obviously Lucas loves technology... but the story isn't really about it, not in the way "hard SF" is. I mean, you could transplant much of the plot into a pure fantasy setting with minimal changes. (Isn't A New Hope supposed to be based heavily on a samurai film?)

EDIT: Perhaps I should say, "pure sci-fi". "Hard sci-fi" is supposed to be actually plausible– with the result that practically nothing qualifies.

Well, even if we could--and I'm not so sure I would concede that, as I think the love of technology is essential to the story--just as we might cross out the "children's passages" in TH to create a dark TH, that wouldn't remain Lucas' work any more than it would remain Tolkien's work: it would be ours.

Definitions are always tricky, as they end up excluding writers who usually are accepted as belonging to the genre. Saying Science Fiction is about technology would eliminate Ursula Le Guin, Judith Merrill, and other writers who also want to consider how technology impacts society, culture, psychology.

I myself prefer the designation Speculative Fiction, as that seems more encompassing--it includes writers who strive to push the edges of the genre.

We also can't overlook the aspects of the cowboy genre in Star Wars. It seems to encompass so many different kinds of stories while weaving its own adventure. In that sense, it is much like LotR, which holds so many earlier narratives in its sight while producing something unique.