Microphones in Middle-earth...the BBC Lord of the Rings

[davem]

Transcript: http://www.tolkienradio.com/knifeinthedark.html

This episode ranges over a wide territory - we begin at Bree, with Merry's reappearance after being rescued by Nob, & end with Frodo's offer to take the Ring at the end of the Council of Elrond. I wondered about the 'two men' he saw stooping over Merry - I'd always assumed them to be Black Riders, but I wonder now if they might not have been Bill Ferny & companion...

Frodo's dream in the Inn I think was handled very effectively & made brilliant use of the medium by having the Black Rider's screech turn into the crowing of a cock. Once again we can see plainly the advantages & disadvantages of the medium in this episode - by this point in the story a listener to the series knows far more about the history & background or the world & characters than a viewer of the movie. We don't simply have Aragorn pointing at a hill & saying 'This is the watchtower of Amon Sul. We rest here tonight.'. We get:

No, this path was made to serve the Watchtower of Amon Sûl, that once stood upon its top. It was burned and broken by a terrible enemy, who is now but a servant of the Enemy we face. It is told that Elendil stood there watching for the coming of Gil-galad out of the West.

Pippin: When was that?

Aragorn: Long ago, in the days of the Last Alliance between Men and Elves.

Which leads nicely into Sam singing the Lay of Gil-Galad.

Of course, there are disadvantages - we don't really know what is happening at the Ford (unless we've read the book, of course) - we know something has happened, 'cos there's a lot of background noise & Frodo shouting about falling, but we have to wait till the next scene (originally the next episode) in Rivendell for an explanation of what did happen. It was nice to have Glorfindel there, & to 'see' Frodo's active defiance of the Nazgul, rather than as in the movie where he is (as usual) depicted as helpless victim.

Again, this episode contains a new scene - between Bilbo & Frodo in the Hall of Fire. I've never been sure how well this works. Clearly its there for exposition purposes, & there's not really any other way to do it. Even when you have a Narrator you can't simply hand over great chunks of exposition to him/her, & putting in the form of a conversation often makes it easier for the listener to take in.

As to the Council, I think it was handled far better than the movie, where it seemed to consist of a bunch of people bickering for ten minutes, only to be told in no uncertain terms at the end by Elrond that they only have one option & that is to throw the Ring into the Fire - he could just have sent them a postcard. The main difference here is that, as with the book, the participants have come for counsel regarding their individual concerns & it is shown by the end of the Council that all those individual concerns are part of one much greater concern - the Ring & what to do with it. Once again we see the advantage of the medium in the amount of sheer information that is communicated to the listener.

As I've stated previously, I don't claim this series is perfect - either in itself or as an adaptation of the book. What I do think is that it captures the spirit of the book, & of Middle-earth itself.

[Brian Sibley]

I have been fascinated to follow people's reactions and responses to the BBC radio series which I co-dramatised twenty-six years ago.

Thank you for your insights.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Brian Sibley

I have been fascinated to follow people's reactions and responses to the BBC radio series which I co-dramatised twenty-six years ago.

Thank you for your insights.

(davem scans his posts nervously to make sure he hasn't said anything bad......)

And in case anyone is uncertain, this is the real Brian Sibley. As I noted earlier I emailed Mr Sibley the other day to ask if he could put his wonderful essay on the BBC series back on his website & I included a link to this thread so he could have a look at our discussion.

Mithalwen & I have been praising this series on various threads here over the years & I'm sure she will be as thrilled as I am about Brian's appearance here on the Downs.

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by davem

(davem scans his posts nervously to make sure he hasn't said anything bad......)

And in case anyone is uncertain, this is the real Brian Sibley. As I noted earlier I emailed Mr Sibley

Yes, davem, this is about as real as it gets!

What is intriguing is to read people writing about the radio series having heard it for the very first time! Anyway, here are a couple of responses/answers/amplifications...

Not surprisingly, many people commented on what they see (or hear) as being weak or ineffectual sound-effects but, of course, 27 years ago (before digital radio and THX sound) they sounded a lot better...

That is not an excuse - just a fact! It is like watching an old black and white movie and saying that it's not as good because it isn't in colour or that the back projection effects weren't very convincing... Any work of art (and I think the radio LOTR is that, wherever and however flawed) has to be viewed - or heard - with some regard to when it was created...

(But, for what it's worth, I never liked the eagle wings!! )

On the use of material from sources other than LOTR: these were all copyright-cleared with the Tolkien estate and included 'The Hobbit', 'Unfinished Tales' and 'Bilbo's Last Song'.

Maybe it was a mistake to include The Hunt for the Ring; I wonder whether people feel the same about the Gandalf/Saruman/Gwaihir scenes that (in the book) are not revealed until the Council of Elrond at Rivendell?

Appropriateness of voices: this is interesting - even in 1981, people wrote to me to say that actor 'X' sounded absolutely like So-and-so, whereas actor 'Y' was completely wrong! How much harder it is since the films which are now so strongly imprinted on everyone's mind that a lot of the Tolkien fan-art that I see is simply a version of the characters as seen in the Jackson movies.

On the question of whether Jackson could have told the story more fully: the answer is, surely, yes! It wasn't that Jackson had less time (he had almost as much as the radio production and many things can be shown quicker on film than in dialogue and spoken exposition); but he made choices - just as we did on radio - and his choices included long battles (over-long some might say!) and many invented scenes to develop the emotional/romantic relationships (the Arwen/Aragorn/Eowyn love-triangle) or to build suspense (like the warg attack and the faux Aragorn death); I think that some of those choices served PJ's story better than they did Tolkien's...

Anyway, thanks for all the new perspectives and apologies for whatever gaffs and errors you uncover - many of which I have lived with and longed to put right in the subsequent two-and-a-half decades!!

I hope people won't be too outraged when I say I was very surprised to discover that the radio series was on YouTube and, whilst I love the fact that people are still discovering this series, I am sorry that it is out there is a form that disregards the copyright interests of a lot of people including the Tolkien estate, the dramatists, composer, musicians and actors or their estates.

Still, thanks for a nice welcome and I'll try to comment from time to time when I've anything useful to say and if and when I can remember anything...

[Gwathagor]

Wow...Brian Sibley...

Thank you, Mr. Sibley, for making the radio series such a faithful, spirited adaptation. It's outstanding.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by davem

Mithalwen & I have been praising this series on various threads here over the years & I'm sure she will be as thrilled as I am about Brian's appearance here on the Downs.

Thrilled? I nearly fainted when I had a quick look at lunchtime and have been in a similar state to Sam on hearing he would go to meet the elves all afternoon!

As Dave has said, we have been praising this on other threads for years so to get any discussion going was wonderful (I will be participating more, I was anticipating some time off, or at least a reduced workload which hasn't yet materialised). I still can't quite believe it.

I was quite young when it first came out - I heard the hour episodes and am afraid I made my own recordings which I listened to endlessly (I bought the true recordings as soon as I could! and are one of the few things I wouldn't lend anyone!). I did have the music cassette which I wore out.

The series had a great effect on me . It turned me into a Radio four listener younger than most ) and also a fan of Counter tenors [ on a side issue that has been raised I would point out that it is not unusual to use the countertenor voice for non-human roles - eg Oberon in Britten's Midsummer Night's Dream].

It may even have been the radio series that led me to finish reading the LOTR. I had been given it after reading the Hobbit (after the Jackanory production) but had stopped at the end of the Two Towers the second half of which had been a long bleak haul for a very young reader. Those chapters I found so difficult are perhaps my favourite parts of the Radio production - the interaction between Frodo, Sam and Gollum (and Faramir) was just perfect.

Although I listen to the series at least a couple of times a year, and know the plot I still find myself on tenterhooks. I hope you will stay around because once I have calmed down I shall have as many questions as Pippin. But don't let taht put you off!

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Thrilled? I nearly fainted when I had a quick look at lunchtime and have been in a similar state to Sam on hearing he would go to meet the elves all afternoon!

Er... thanks...

[ArathornJax]

Well, today I listened to the journey from Crickhollow to the Prancing Pony to Bree, then through the Midgewater Marshes to Weathertop.

What I enjoyed:
I really enjoyed how though by-passing the Old Forest the four hobbits make it clear that they are "going off the road" and going through the Old Forest on their way to Bree. This gave me the possibility that the events on the book on the Old Forest occurred, while allowing the adaptation to move on. I enjoyed this and again, this is something I wish the movies could have done.

I love Barliman's character and the actor doing his voice nailed it. I know that Gollum may be the Gollum others hear when they read the series, this is what I hear for Barliman's voice.

I enjoyed the 'fiddle" in the Prancing Pony and felt it was a good back drop since inn's have been associated with music and "fiddles" at least here in the US. I was glad that the song was included because I think it shows Frodo in a different light than at any other time during the journey. I enjoyed the Inn scene.

I know there is a thread on Aragorn, and I still have not seen or heard someone who is Aragorn for me. Robert Stephens does a very good job with Aragorn, but I still haven't found the Aragorn in my mind. Not sure why.

The journey from Bree to Weathertop I felt is done nicely and moves the story forward. I love the Gil-Galad song by Sam, and it was this song that got my daughter to read LOTR. Before hearing this, she felt it was something for me and my son and she wanted to read her own fantasy selections/choices, for which I'm glad I've worn off on her).

Questions on this Segment:

I understand the need to cut Tom Bombadil out of the adaptation but was the hobbits conservation about going through the Old Forest to avoid the riders and the road a way to allow listeners familiar with the story the notion that the advents of the Old Forest occurred, while allow for the story to move forward?

Tolkien himself said that Tom was important or he wouldn't have kept him in the story. What do you think we lose by taking Tom out of any adaptation, and what is gained?

Perhaps this leads to another question, what was the process for deciding what to add in, what to not include to the story? Is there still anything you would want to add if you still could to the adaptation, or are you happy with the overall product now?


I look forward to listening again tomorrow.

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

I really enjoyed how though by-passing the Old Forest the four hobbits make it clear that they are "going off the road" and going through the Old Forest on their way to Bree. This gave me the possibility that the events on the book on the Old Forest occurred, while allowing the adaptation to move on. I enjoyed this and again, this is something I wish the movies could have done.

Well done! You got it!!

I don't think anyone has ever picked up on that before. That is why, when I later did the Bombadil/Barrow-Downs episodes in my radio dramatisation, Tales of the Perilous Realm, I felt that I was able to just tell listeners what had happened on that pat of the journey they didn't hear!

I was disappointed that we weren't able to get the original cast back together (it was several years later and Ian Holm was already spending quite a lot of time in Hollywood) because, sadly, this meant that it could never really work for anyone who had listened to the original LOTR broadcasts and didn't make much sense on its own to anyone who hadn't!

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

I love Barliman's character and the actor doing his voice nailed it. I know that Gollum may be the Gollum others hear when they read the series, this is what I hear for Barliman's voice.

Me too! James Grout: superb!

When I was shown the first sneak footage of Jackson's FOTR and I saw the scene where Barliman peers over the top of the bar at the hobbits when they enter 'The Prancing Pony', I was convinced they had lifted the voice from the radio serial! Unfortunately, as with many 'minor' characters in the film trilogy, there was so little of Mr Butterbur on the screen that he was never able to develop...

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

I enjoyed the 'fiddle" in the Prancing Pony and felt it was a good back drop since inn's have been associated with music and "fiddles" at least here in the US. I was glad that the song was included because I think it shows Frodo in a different light than at any other time during the journey. I enjoyed the Inn scene.

I just wish that Ian had been able to SING 'The Man in the Moon'.

I remember the agonies and frustrations (for him and composer Stephen Oliver) at the recording session... Speaking the lines didn't quite work for me and I always found myself asking: "WHO is playing the fiddle?" and "How do they KNOW what song he is going to perform?"

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

Questions on this Segment:

I understand the need to cut Tom Bombadil out of the adaptation but was the hobbits conservation about going through the Old Forest to avoid the riders and the road a way to allow listeners familiar with the story the notion that the advents of the Old Forest occurred, while allow for the story to move forward?

As I say, above: you got it in one!

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

Tolkien himself said that Tom was important or he wouldn't have kept him in the story. What do you think we lose by taking Tom out of any adaptation, and what is gained?

I think Dave and others have already said most of what can be said about this... What is lost? A fascinating character... A episode of unexpected dangers... A indication that TREES are not always what they seem to be... An oasis of peace at Tom's house providing a moment's respite on the trail... An opportunity to know that there are those (or at least one) who is untouched by the power of the Ring...

What is gained by cutting Tom? Keeping up the momentum of Frodo's flight and the Riders' pursuit... In Tales of the Perilous Realm, these chapters took TWO half-hour episodes, so, if it had been included in the original broadcasts, these scenes would have needed to be compressed to a point of being, probably, meaningless...

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

Perhaps this leads to another question, what was the process for deciding what to add in, what to not include to the story? Is there still anything you would want to add if you still could to the adaptation, or are you happy with the overall product now?

Dave discussed the process in one of his first posts: it was, basically, down to me (with suggestions from Michael Bakewell, and the producers Jane Morgan and Penny Leicester); the arrangement of the material after the breaking of the Fellowship follows, as closely as possible, the dates given by Tolkien in his appendices.

Of course I would do it differently NOW... But, yes, I am happy with it as it stands - except for the mistakes, which irk me, and one or two moments where I wish we'd had more time - either for the script to escape being cut or to have been able to better perfect a scene... But, then, I've lived with it for 27 years!!

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Episode Three is one of mt favorites from the early parts of the book. This is where a lot of action begins to happen. We also get a good insight into Strider. I do think they chose the right voice actor for Aragorn; his account of Beren and Luthien seems quite heart felt.

Butterbur is dreadfully amusing in this episode. His voice has always stuck with me when reading the books, especially at these points, with the selling of the Pony and the discussions with Strider. But is it just me or does Strider say "We shall see" an awful lot?

On the road to Weathertop we get Sam's rendition of Gilgalad's poem, me absolute favorite version. The tune fits well and the lines are rendered almost hauntingly, especially with the sound effects in the background from birds etc.

When they get to Weathertop we get a clear sense of the place from Merry's description;

And very cheerless and uninviting it looks! There is no water and no shelter. And no sign of Gandalf. Mind you, I don't blame him for not waiting, if he ever came here.

A larger description of Weathertop would probably have been out of place, but this brief description from a disapointed Hobbit says it all. Which is something I liked about this production; the descriptions didn't seem to take up too much space, we get a great sense of the area from the sound effects and the dialogue. This is a good sign of a well produced transition from book to radio. It is so easy for long and enjoyable pieces of prose to be given to a Narator, or, slightly more foolishly, to a character. This does not always work, in my opinion. The Narator is a tool best used scarecely.

The Nazgul are scary! The Lord of the Nazgul has an amusingly British voice, I noticed. As if he spends his time, when not hunting Hobbits, sat at home with a cup of tea and a pipe.

Glorfindel isn't great, I have to admit. Something about him in this version makes him seem constantly worried. But given the situation they are supposed to be in, I think I can forgive them this, however, because he never appears again, it's hard to know if this is supposed to be the character or simply a reaction.

When we come to the Council of Elrond I think we have a dreadfully well crafted arrangement. There is so much material in that scene it would be nigh impossible to record it all in a dramatised format without it seeming dull. With the Dwarves story we have a good idea; inter-cut with dialogue from the messenger of Mordor. This works well and gives an indication as to how they must have felt with such a messenger with seemingly kind words.
Then there is Boromir. No Sean Bean, but still a good performance, especially here. The 'Seek for the Sword' poem hurts my ears, though.

The episode ends at the right place. Frodo accepting the Ring bourdain. After all the talk and discussion, this one decision is, I think, a monumental point in the narrative. Making it a 'cliff hanger' was the right decision, I think, to make it stand out as such.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

On the road to Weathertop we get Sam's rendition of Gilgalad's poem, me absolute favorite version. The tune fits well and the lines are rendered almost hauntingly, especially with the sound effects in the background from birds etc.

Probably my favorite part of the entire series.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

Butterbur is dreadfully amusing in this episode. His voice has always stuck with me when reading the books, especially at these points, with the selling of the Pony and the discussions with Strider. But is it just me or does Strider say "We shall see" an awful lot?

I've always loved James Grout's turn as Butterbur - he never seems to get much of a mention in reviews, but his performance is wonderful - especially in the final episode where Gandalf & the Hobbits return to the Pony on their way home.

On the road to Weathertop we get Sam's rendition of Gilgalad's poem, me absolute favorite version. The tune fits well and the lines are rendered almost hauntingly, especially with the sound effects in the background from birds etc.

This is something I was going to bring up too - whenever I read the book I always hear Stephen Oliver's settings for the songs.

Glorfindel isn't great, I have to admit. Something about him in this version makes him seem constantly worried. But given the situation they are supposed to be in, I think I can forgive them this, however, because he never appears again, it's hard to know if this is supposed to be the character or simply a reaction

Its obviously difficult to introduce a character, have him appear for a few minutes, & then disappear for good. I suppose its easier to omit them altogether. At this point you have to introduce a new character - Bakshi went for an early intro of Legolas, Jackson chose Arwen, the adaptors of this production went for Glorfindel, & I'm glad he got a name check in at least one adaptation! I wonder if his sounding constantly worried was the actor's choice, the director's or the adaptors'?

Originally Posted by Brian Sibley

Not surprisingly, many people commented on what they see (or hear) as being weak or ineffectual sound-effects but, of course, 27 years ago (before digital radio and THX sound) they sounded a lot better...

That is not an excuse - just a fact! It is like watching an old black and white movie and saying that it's not as good because it isn't in colour or that the back projection effects weren't very convincing... Any work of art (and I think the radio LOTR is that, wherever and however flawed) has to be viewed - or heard - with some regard to when it was created...

I wonder if that's why I don't really have a problem with the sound effects - I heard this series back when it was first broadcast & so they sounded pretty much 'state of the art' to me. I think in a way when you listen to a radio series over & over you always kind of go back mentally to the first time you heard it.

I hope people won't be too outraged when I say I was very surprised to discover that the radio series was on YouTube and, whilst I love the fact that people are still discovering this series, I am sorry that it is out there is a form that disregards the copyright interests of a lot of people including the Tolkien estate, the dramatists, composer, musicians and actors or their estates.

As I was the one who originally posted the links to the You Tube LotR section I feel a bit guilty - though as I said I did it in all innocence & removed the links as soon as their illegality was pointed up. I can only say that I my own copies are perfectly legal, on both cassette & CD (the BBC CD set in the black & gold 'book' format is probably the nicest edition - if anyone's interested)

[Gwathagor]

I've seen that version in processing at the Wade Center and coveted it once or twice, mainly for the 14th CD. I own the boxed CD version with the Grey Havens illustration, which isn't quite as nice as the gold and black.

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by davem

I've always loved James Grout's turn as Butterbur - he never seems to get much of a mention in reviews, but his performance is wonderful - especially in the final episode where Gandalf & the Hobbits return to the Pony on their way home.

I so agree. Of the smaller roles, my personal favourites are James Grout as Butterbur, John Bott as Farmer Maggot, Stephen Thorne as Treebeard and Peter Howell as Saruman. Obviously Saruman is not as 'developed' as in the films, but then we didn't make up quite so much stuff about him -- and we killed him off!!

Originally Posted by davem

As I was the one who originally posted the links to the You Tube LotR section I feel a bit guilty - though as I said I did it in all innocence & removed the links as soon as their illegality was pointed up. I can only say that I my own copies are perfectly legal, on both cassette & CD (the BBC CD set in the black & gold 'book' format is probably the nicest edition - if anyone's interested)

Nothing to feel guilty about! You behaved quite properly. As to the best set: I think it is the last one produced - digitally re-mastered and with the new prologues and epilogues with Ian Holm. BTW, as a trivia note for anyone with this version: the closing credits are read by --- me!

This version was also issued, for a while, in a round ring-shaped tin and had with it a bonus disc with a 70+ minute documentary entitled 'Microphones in Middle-earth' - written and presented by myself with Michael Bakewell, Jane Morgan, Bill Nighy, John McAndrew, Marion Diamond and several Rings fans.

What I wish was available is the original 26 episode version which truly reflects how I structured the series and how Michael Bakewell I dramatised it. I have it on personal cassettes, but the original masters were edited to make the 13 hour version and so no longer exist.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

A quick question for you, Mr Brian; were you involved in the BBC Radio adaptation of Tales from the Perilous Realm? I enjoyed those and felt that Bombadill was portrayed as well as could be expected, the voice did fit, I felt, and the performance was good. The Farmer Giles one still makes me laugh, especially Garm.

But, back to The Lord of the Rings...

Where the Radio version gets interesting is in the feeling of the surroundings. You apologised earlier for the sound effects, but I felt they worked perfectly. I assume it was the Radio phonix workshop or some such, but it seemed that the background noises was exquisitely executed. Although, the only criticism I ever bring is the Nazgul's horses sound a bit weird, not sure why.
The greatest achievement of the Radio production is how faithful it is. I suppose I am comparing it to the recent films (and the not so recent films), but still. I think a serial is the only way to do The Lord of the Rings justice, really. Too much material for a truly faithful film.

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

A quick question for you, Mr Brian; were you involved in the BBC Radio adaptation of Tales from the Perilous Realm? I enjoyed those and felt that Bombadill was portrayed as well as could be expected, the voice did fit, I felt, and the performance was good. The Farmer Giles one still makes me laugh, especially Garm.

Yes, I dramatised the six episodes (2 'Farmer Giles'; 2 'Bombadil'; 1 each, 'Smith of Wootton Major' and 'Leaf by Niggle'); in fact I also played the Giant in Farmer Giles and the dragon was played by Stephen (Treebeard) Thorne. The series was narrated by Michael (Gandalf) Hordern. It is available on cassette and CD.

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

But, back to The Lord of the Rings...

Where the Radio version gets interesting is in the feeling of the surroundings. You apologised earlier for the sound effects, but I felt they worked perfectly. I assume it was the Radio phonix workshop or some such, but it seemed that the background noises was exquisitely executed. Although, the only criticism I ever bring is the Nazgul's horses sound a bit weird, not sure why.
The greatest achievement of the Radio production is how faithful it is. I suppose I am comparing it to the recent films (and the not so recent films), but still. I think a serial is the only way to do The Lord of the Rings justice, really. Too much material for a truly faithful film.

I do hope that the fact that I'm reading this thread won't inhibit contributors too much, because I'm genuinely interested to read people's honest - uncensored! - thoughts and comments...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Brian Sibley

As to the best set: I think it is the last one produced - digitally re-mastered and with the new prologues and epilogues with Ian Holm. BTW, as a trivia note for anyone with this version: the closing credits are read by --- me!

This version was also issued, for a while, in a round ring-shaped tin and had with it a bonus disc with a 70+ minute documentary entitled 'Microphones in Middle-earth' - written and presented by myself with Michael Bakewell, Jane Morgan, Bill Nighy, John McAndrew, Marion Diamond and several Rings fans.

I didn't know about that documentary Actually, I'd only just bought the gold & black set (for £80!!)) when that one came out, so I swallowed my disappointment & have now convinced myself that I have the best version..... Bet its not available seperately though, is it? i do have your 'Audio Portrait' set, & a tape of the Fired by the Ring documentary (with a bit of Oz Clarke's singing missing in the middle due to having to turn the tape over.....

What I wish was available is the original 26 episode version which truly reflects how I structured the series and how Michael Bakewell I dramatised it. I have it on personal cassettes, but the original masters were edited to make the 13 hour version and so no longer exist.

That's the version I'd like to have actually - I still half hear it while listening to the re-edited versions - at the 'cliff-hangers' - if you see what I mean. I can't believe they edited the originaltapes