The neglected race- The Drúedain - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eönwë · 02-23-2008, 12:34 PM

Maybe it is a bit like if you are a very strict Muslim. They (at least, many do) believe that if you draw or make an image or something you will have to put a part of your soul into it.

Aghan even says:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aghan, THe Faithful Stone

If some power passes from you to a thing that you have made, then you must take a share in its hurts

but actually that doesn't help.

Maybe in order to make such good copies of real life, they needed to sacrifice some of their soul, or something like that, wich coincidently ties in with what I was saying about Islam, where it says something about when you make an imitation of something that is real, you are taking the job of the Creator, so you must give it life, and if you are not the Creator (God), then you cannot make its own soul and have to give it some of yours, and (I think) the closer you make it to real life the more you have to give.

PS. If I have offended anyone or said anything wrong please tell me and I will change this post

littlemanpoet · 02-23-2008, 01:13 PM

It seems that everything Tolkien wrote about came from some aspect of his professional life. He was unavoidably knowledgeable of the primitive peoples that had existed in the lands where the Germanic peoples lived that he spent most of his time studying. Whereas the Druedain do not directly resemble, say, Picts, or Basques, et cetera, there is a certain recognizability in them to such folk from our own past. There is the animistic element, though Tolkien has cleaned that up and removed from it any "witch doctor" connotations.

The Druedain seem to be depicted more or less after the fashion of primitive peoples with which we are familiar from our own studies of not so far distant history, such as the Aborigines of Australia, the Native Americans, and the natives of the Amazon as well. But their moral character seems a cut above. Which is interesting. I suppose Native Americans probably would have had an implacable hatred of Orcs; after all, they had an implacable hatred for what the European settlers did to their sacred lands....

ArathornJax · 02-23-2008, 02:52 PM

From an essay by Michael Martinez on Mysteries on Middle Earth:

"Tolkien liked the word "wose", by the way. He used it as one of Turin's nicknames (Saeros called him a woodwose in "Narn i Chin Hurin") and "woodwose" is the modern form of the Anglo-Saxon "wudu-wasa", "wild man of the woods" (another of Turin's nicknames). "Woses" is therefore intended to be a translation of the actual Rohirric word, "Rogin" (sing. Rog), with much the same meaning, "wild men of the woods". The Rohirrim were ignorant (as was Tolkien, when he wrote Lord of the Rings) of the Woses' ancient history." (and I ok with using a paragraph under a quote under Fair-Use and especially in this case where you can download the essay for free).

This notion of Wudu-wasa or woodwose is common in both Anglo-Saxon and in Europe for wildmen of the woods. The myth seems to be based around men who were extremely hairy and used a wooden club. So I think it is quite evident that Tolkien used yet again learning from his career to incorporate these people into the story.

As to why they are included I believe they are another example by Tolkien of adding such a rich diversity to Middle Earth and to his story. The Druedain for me are much like Australia's Aborigines people, yet in a deep sense, I think they reflect in a deeper way, man in a natural condition that is far more in touch with nature than "civilized man." In any case, they do add to the diversity of the people's of Middle Earth.

Alfirin · 02-23-2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

From an essay by Michael Martinez on Mysteries on Middle Earth:

"As to why they are included I believe they are another example by Tolkien of adding such a rich diversity to Middle Earth and to his story. The Druedain for me are much like Australia's Aborigines people, yet in a deep sense, I think they reflect in a deeper way, man in a natural condition that is far more in touch with nature than "civilized man." In any case, they do add to the diversity of the people's of Middle Earth.

Really?, I've always though of them being more Pictish, to the rather Anglo-Saxon Gondorians and Teutonic Rohirrim

ArathornJax · 02-23-2008, 07:01 PM

To clarify, I was thinking in terms of being native peoples in touch with the land. I heard others consider them perhaps lost Neanderthals, but I haven't agreed because of size etc. They perhaps could represent a lost branch of mankind that eventually died out.
I do think they represent the diversity found in Middle Earth of a variety of people and even in a race, the diversity and variety of people within a race. I think for me, that is one of many, many things Tolkien does that makes Middle Earth so much like our own world.

The Druedain also remind that Tolkien brings in beasts, people and such that are almost crossover between an ancient world and the beginning of our modern one. The Oliphant, the Fell Beast, the Druedain are all examples of this.

Alfirin · 02-23-2008, 07:43 PM

You also might want to include the Kine of Araw (the bulls from one of whose horns Boromirs horn was made); they always impressed me as being far more like true wild bulls (Aurochs or is that Aurochses?) perhaps with a touch of the legendary white bulls of Cullingham Park mixed in (the aformetioned are a strain of cattle that as I recall were supposed to be more or less immune to cattle diseases by virtue of having been a purebred line dating back to time immemorial (time immemoria in the case being estimated at 50,000 years (yeah I don't really beive it either.))

but I agree that middle earth seems to have an astonish diversity of peoples with people corresponding to an astonishing number of groups. It even has Inuit! (the Lossoth)

The Might · 02-23-2008, 07:47 PM

I actually thought about that as I wrote it Estelyn.
Also because Aghan suffers once the statue is destroyed.

And thanks Eonwe for that information, not aware of that.

Gwathagor · 02-23-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Maybe it is a bit like if you are a very strict Muslim. They (at least, many do) believe that if you draw or make an image or something you will have to put a part of your soul into it.

Aghan even says:

but actually that doesn't help.

Maybe in order to make such good copies of real life, they needed to sacrifice some of their soul, or something like that, wich coincidently ties in with what I was saying about Islam, where it says something about when you make an imitation of something that is real, you are taking the job of the Creator, so you must give it life, and if you are not the Creator (God), then you cannot make its own soul and have to give it some of yours, and (I think) the closer you make it to real life the more you have to give.

PS. If I have offended anyone or said anything wrong please tell me and I will change this post

Gee, this sounds a lot like something Tolkien would say about sub-creation. I wonder if he had that in mind when wrote this particular story.

Ghazi · 02-25-2008, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Maybe it is a bit like if you are a very strict Muslim. They (at least, many do) believe that if you draw or make an image or something you will have to put a part of your soul into it.

PS. If I have offended anyone or said anything wrong please tell me and I will change this post

The power that the Druedain possessed was perceived as remarkable (a weak attempt on my part to connect this post with the topic of the thread). In Islam the making of images is seen as sinful. I have read that those who make images will be punished but I haven't read that they will be forced to provide a portion of their soul to their handiwork. I take no offense from your post. Thanks for asking.

Eönwë · 02-27-2008, 03:37 PM

They are many different ways to interpret things, and what I mentioned is just one.

Ghazi · 02-28-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

They are many different ways to interpret things, and what I mentioned is just one.

Yes, of course. My sources of information are from the traditional Sunni perspective. There are certainly other interpretations, as is well known.

I find the Druedain to be admirable because it seems from the information provided that they are the most pure among mankind. I have always been intrigued by the quote above, "Their voices were deep and guttural, but their laughter was a surprise: it was rich and rolling, and set all who heard it, Elves or Men, laughing too for its pure merriment untainted by scorn or malice." Also, I think that I have read that there was some speculation by the inhabitants of Beleriand that the Druedain were related to Orcs. Elves apparently squashed that speculation because to their heightened senses the two groups could not be more different.

Eönwë · 02-28-2008, 02:16 PM

Yes, I think you are thinking of this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notes, The Drúedain, UT

To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth must have bred the Orcs from such a stock the Eldar answered: `Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Drúedain must have escaped his Shadow; for their laughter and the laughter of Ores are as different as is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband.'

edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

TM, do you imagine that might be similar to the horcrux idea as told in the Harry Potter books?

Isn't the ring like the horcrux idea in the Harry Potter books? (though obviously JRRT wrote first)

Alfirin · 02-28-2008, 04:21 PM

Neither Tolkien nor Rowling came up with the idea. While I admits that, until I read Rowling I had never heard the word "horcrux" the concept it (and the master ring) embodies (that of an evil being hiding his or her soul in an object outside of thier body so as to become immortal and invicible) is one that should be familiar to anyone who has read a decent amount of folklore. One story that comes to mind in particular would be "The Heartless Giant" (proably becuse of the version done of the story in Jim Henson's "The Storyteller" series.

Eönwë · 02-28-2008, 04:34 PM

I actually meant "Tolkien before Rowling"not "Tolkien first"

02-23-2008, 02:52 PM	#3
ArathornJax Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Out West near a Big Salty Lake Posts: 76	Woses From an essay by Michael Martinez on Mysteries on Middle Earth: "Tolkien liked the word "wose", by the way. He used it as one of Turin's nicknames (Saeros called him a woodwose in "Narn i Chin Hurin") and "woodwose" is the modern form of the Anglo-Saxon "wudu-wasa", "wild man of the woods" (another of Turin's nicknames). "Woses" is therefore intended to be a translation of the actual Rohirric word, "Rogin" (sing. Rog), with much the same meaning, "wild men of the woods". The Rohirrim were ignorant (as was Tolkien, when he wrote Lord of the Rings) of the Woses' ancient history." (and I ok with using a paragraph under a quote under Fair-Use and especially in this case where you can download the essay for free). This notion of Wudu-wasa or woodwose is common in both Anglo-Saxon and in Europe for wildmen of the woods. The myth seems to be based around men who were extremely hairy and used a wooden club. So I think it is quite evident that Tolkien used yet again learning from his career to incorporate these people into the story. As to why they are included I believe they are another example by Tolkien of adding such a rich diversity to Middle Earth and to his story. The Druedain for me are much like Australia's Aborigines people, yet in a deep sense, I think they reflect in a deeper way, man in a natural condition that is far more in touch with nature than "civilized man." In any case, they do add to the diversity of the people's of Middle Earth.

02-23-2008, 07:01 PM	#5
ArathornJax Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Out West near a Big Salty Lake Posts: 76	Pictish To clarify, I was thinking in terms of being native peoples in touch with the land. I heard others consider them perhaps lost Neanderthals, but I haven't agreed because of size etc. They perhaps could represent a lost branch of mankind that eventually died out. I do think they represent the diversity found in Middle Earth of a variety of people and even in a race, the diversity and variety of people within a race. I think for me, that is one of many, many things Tolkien does that makes Middle Earth so much like our own world. The Druedain also remind that Tolkien brings in beasts, people and such that are almost crossover between an ancient world and the beginning of our modern one. The Oliphant, the Fell Beast, the Druedain are all examples of this.

02-23-2008, 07:47 PM	#7
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	I actually thought about that as I wrote it Estelyn. Also because Aghan suffers once the statue is destroyed. And thanks Eonwe for that information, not aware of that. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

02-27-2008, 03:37 PM	#10
Eönwë Flame Imperishable Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Right here Posts: 3,928	They are many different ways to interpret things, and what I mentioned is just one. __________________ Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place

02-28-2008, 04:34 PM	#14
Eönwë Flame Imperishable Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Right here Posts: 3,928	I actually meant "Tolkien before Rowling"not "Tolkien first" __________________ Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place Last edited by Eönwë; 05-30-2008 at 10:32 AM. Reason: just relaised- where's the "s"

02-23-2008, 01:13 PM	#2
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	It seems that everything Tolkien wrote about came from some aspect of his professional life. He was unavoidably knowledgeable of the primitive peoples that had existed in the lands where the Germanic peoples lived that he spent most of his time studying. Whereas the Druedain do not directly resemble, say, Picts, or Basques, et cetera, there is a certain recognizability in them to such folk from our own past. There is the animistic element, though Tolkien has cleaned that up and removed from it any "witch doctor" connotations. The Druedain seem to be depicted more or less after the fashion of primitive peoples with which we are familiar from our own studies of not so far distant history, such as the Aborigines of Australia, the Native Americans, and the natives of the Amazon as well. But their moral character seems a cut above. Which is interesting. I suppose Native Americans probably would have had an implacable hatred of Orcs; after all, they had an implacable hatred for what the European settlers did to their sacred lands....

02-23-2008, 07:43 PM	#6
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	You also might want to include the Kine of Araw (the bulls from one of whose horns Boromirs horn was made); they always impressed me as being far more like true wild bulls (Aurochs or is that Aurochses?) perhaps with a touch of the legendary white bulls of Cullingham Park mixed in (the aformetioned are a strain of cattle that as I recall were supposed to be more or less immune to cattle diseases by virtue of having been a purebred line dating back to time immemorial (time immemoria in the case being estimated at 50,000 years (yeah I don't really beive it either.)) but I agree that middle earth seems to have an astonish diversity of peoples with people corresponding to an astonishing number of groups. It even has Inuit! (the Lossoth)

02-28-2008, 04:21 PM	#13
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	Neither Tolkien nor Rowling came up with the idea. While I admits that, until I read Rowling I had never heard the word "horcrux" the concept it (and the master ring) embodies (that of an evil being hiding his or her soul in an object outside of thier body so as to become immortal and invicible) is one that should be familiar to anyone who has read a decent amount of folklore. One story that comes to mind in particular would be "The Heartless Giant" (proably becuse of the version done of the story in Jim Henson's "The Storyteller" series.