Seven Stars, Seven Stones and One White Tree... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Imperica · 02-23-2008, 10:28 AM

They represent seven of the nine ships that carried the Palantiri from the destruction of Numenor.

zxcvbn · 02-23-2008, 11:29 AM

Eh? Where does it say that? And if that's the case, shouldn't it be 'Seven Ships, Seven Stones and One White Tree'?

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 02-23-2008, 11:48 AM

In believe that either in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth or The Tolkien Companion (and I think it's the former), the claim is made that there was a flag with a star on each of the seven Numenorean ships that came to Middle-earth carrying a palantir. I don't know where this particular bit of information came from, and I have seen several heated debates as to its accuracy, as there does not seem to be any supporting text in Tolkien's writings. Moreover, the CGtME is really not complete; it does not accept anything but what appeared in the published novels as fact -- no matter how often Tolkien himself said "this is so." For instance, it says only that Gandalf MAY have been a Maia. It will not accept the evidence of Tolkien's essay on the Istari in UT, or any of his many letters attesting to the fact that the Olorin mentioned in the Valaquenta is the same Olorin as Gandalf named himself in LoTR.

If I can ever dig out my office and get back to my books again, I may have another go at looking for an explanation for the "seven stars," but that doesn't look likely in the near future *sigh*.

ArathornJax · 02-23-2008, 03:27 PM

In the paperback version of The Silmarillion on page 331 in the Akallabeth it states that the Elendil, Isildur and "the Faithful put aboard their wives and children, and their heirlooms and great stores of goods." These were put on the ships that they had prepared, while on Isildur's ship they put and guarded the "young tree, the scion of Nimloth the Fair." It also mentions here that they had Seven Stones that they also put on the ships (9 total ships and 7 had one each of the palantiri put on them). When you look in the index at seven stones it refers you to the palantiri

In The Lord of the Rings Companion on page 436 it says "According to the 1966 Index (of the Silmarillion) the seven stars that were part of the emblem of Elendil and his house 'originally represented the single stars on the banners of each of seven ships (of 9) that bore a palantir.'

Perhaps another question would be did Amandil the father of Elendil make it to Aman and was that why Elendil and his ships made it to Middle Earth, or was it just luck?

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 02-23-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArathornJax

In The Lord of the Rings Companion on page 436 it says "According to the 1966 Index (of the Silmarillion) the seven stars that were part of the emblem of Elendil and his house 'originally represented the single stars on the banners of each of seven ships (of 9) that bore a palantir.'

Is this referring to an unpublished index? (since TS wasn't published until 1977). Curious....

ArathornJax · 02-23-2008, 07:20 PM

I would have to refer you to the companion. All it says is the 1966 Index. In Appendix A there is a brief mention of Elendil and his sons escaping the downfall in nine ships with the seven stones. So, unless they were referring in the reference to an Index of 1966 in the LOTR, or it is a printing error, I'm not sure. I'll have to look at the sources when I get some time to try and identify where/what they were referring to.

Gwathagor · 02-23-2008, 11:04 PM

I'm pretty sure that the seven stars are simply a heraldic device used by the Elendili. I can't think why seven stars would refer to nine ships...

02-23-2008, 11:48 AM	#3
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	In believe that either in The Complete Guide to Middle-earth or The Tolkien Companion (and I think it's the former), the claim is made that there was a flag with a star on each of the seven Numenorean ships that came to Middle-earth carrying a palantir. I don't know where this particular bit of information came from, and I have seen several heated debates as to its accuracy, as there does not seem to be any supporting text in Tolkien's writings. Moreover, the CGtME is really not complete; it does not accept anything but what appeared in the published novels as fact -- no matter how often Tolkien himself said "this is so." For instance, it says only that Gandalf MAY have been a Maia. It will not accept the evidence of Tolkien's essay on the Istari in UT, or any of his many letters attesting to the fact that the Olorin mentioned in the Valaquenta is the same Olorin as Gandalf named himself in LoTR. If I can ever dig out my office and get back to my books again, I may have another go at looking for an explanation for the "seven stars," but that doesn't look likely in the near future sigh. __________________ Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill

02-23-2008, 03:27 PM	#4
ArathornJax Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Out West near a Big Salty Lake Posts: 76	Seven Stars/Seven Ships In the paperback version of The Silmarillion on page 331 in the Akallabeth it states that the Elendil, Isildur and "the Faithful put aboard their wives and children, and their heirlooms and great stores of goods." These were put on the ships that they had prepared, while on Isildur's ship they put and guarded the "young tree, the scion of Nimloth the Fair." It also mentions here that they had Seven Stones that they also put on the ships (9 total ships and 7 had one each of the palantiri put on them). When you look in the index at seven stones it refers you to the palantiri In The Lord of the Rings Companion on page 436 it says "According to the 1966 Index (of the Silmarillion) the seven stars that were part of the emblem of Elendil and his house 'originally represented the single stars on the banners of each of seven ships (of 9) that bore a palantir.' Perhaps another question would be did Amandil the father of Elendil make it to Aman and was that why Elendil and his ships made it to Middle Earth, or was it just luck?

02-23-2008, 07:20 PM	#6
ArathornJax Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Out West near a Big Salty Lake Posts: 76	Refer to the companion I would have to refer you to the companion. All it says is the 1966 Index. In Appendix A there is a brief mention of Elendil and his sons escaping the downfall in nine ships with the seven stones. So, unless they were referring in the reference to an Index of 1966 in the LOTR, or it is a printing error, I'm not sure. I'll have to look at the sources when I get some time to try and identify where/what they were referring to.

02-23-2008, 11:04 PM	#7
Gwathagor Shade with a Blade Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: A Rainy Night In Soho Posts: 2,512	I'm pretty sure that the seven stars are simply a heraldic device used by the Elendili. I can't think why seven stars would refer to nine ships... __________________ Stories and songs.

02-23-2008, 10:28 AM	#1
Imperica Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 35	They represent seven of the nine ships that carried the Palantiri from the destruction of Numenor.

02-23-2008, 11:29 AM	#2
zxcvbn Wight Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In front of my PC Posts: 164	Eh? Where does it say that? And if that's the case, shouldn't it be 'Seven Ships, Seven Stones and One White Tree'?