Reversed places

[Beanamir of Gondor]

I think the vital problem with the Faramir-in-the-Fellowship argument is that it seems to stem from the films, in particular a flashback scene in TTT:EE. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the only place I'd ever find inspiration for such a scheme:
Boromir: My place is here with my people, not in Rivendell!
Faramir: If there is need to go to Rivendell, send me in his stead.
Denethor: Oh, yes. A chance for Faramir, captain of Gondor, to show his quality. I think not. I will send your brother--the one who will not fail me.

Much as I love Jackson's addition in TTT, I consider it to be utter silliness, founded as much upon sentimentalism as the fact that Jackson wanted Faramir to be younger, more sensitive, and more prone to emotional action than in the book. (I always refer people back to this article on Faramir for an amazing comparison.) The crucial question we're not asking is why Book!Faramir would ever have been sent to Rivendell in the first place. Boromir was the elder son, the favorite of his father, and when Gondor was summoned to the council, Boromir would have been Denethor's first choice, hands down.

Also, in terms of the film, I consider Faramir to have stood up to a LOT more temptation that Boromir: "Here I have a host of men at my call, and the Ring of Power within my grasp. A chance for Faramir, captain of Gondor, to show his quality." He realizes that his brother has totally failed in his mission to bring Denethor "a mighty gift", and feels a responsibility to do so. And yet he doesn't take the Ring, knowing that he must resist both his father's wrath, and the temptation of the Ring. If Movie!Faramir had indeed been in the Fellowship (which would mean that he had been granted trust by his father, and therefore would have been much more self-confident even than Boromir), I get this feeling that he would have taken on an Aragorn-like role: he would have fully recognized his temptation by the Ring, and in the same breath rejected it.

Let me conclude my lengthy and somewhat tangential rant by agreeing with what's been said: it'd be fun to argue whether or not the Fellowship would have survived if Faramir had replaced Boromir, but as Mithalwen says, Boromir's betrayal of Frodo does, ultimately, serve simply as an irreplaceable plot device. You might as well as what would have happened if Sam hadn't agreed to go with Frodo!

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Oooh, I like this thread.

I think that without Boromir's betrayal, there might not have been that particular catalyst to push Frodo into leaving.

However, Frodo was already struggling with the decision. No doubt he was prompted by Boromir's increasing greed for the Ring, but I believe that to some degree, his mind was already made up. He knew that the break was going to happen, and he may have even been contemplating leaving alone (otherwise, why would he ask for the time to himself to think things over?). Sam knew it, too, even if none of the others did.

Sam even says it right out:

Originally Posted by Sam, The Breaking of the Fellowship

Mr. Frodo, he knows he's got to find the Cracks of Doom, if he can. But he's afraid
[...]
he's still too frightened to start. And he isn't worrying about us either: whether we'll go along with him or no. He knows we mean to. That's another thing that's bothering him. If he screws himself up to go, he'll want to go alone. Mark my words! We're going to have trouble when he gets back. For he'll screw himself up, all right, sure as his name's Baggins.

...and people say Sam isn't smart.

Frodo may have been torn, but he knew what he had to do. He's a tough little hobbit, and he'd "screw himself up" eventually. That decision is independent of whatever was going on with Boromir. There was clearly a growing mistrust between Boromir and Frodo, Sam, and Aragorn...but I don't think that the decision would have been any different if the purer Faramir had been involved. Frodo has to go to Mordor. No other option makes sense. He knows it. Sam knows it. Frodo also, I think, grasps the importance of not bringing a lot of the Fellowship in with him. For one thing, Mordor is a pretty tall order, and he wouldn't wish that doom on anyone else. For another, I think he also has come to understand the importance of secrecy, and therefore a small group.

Boromir just tipped the scale, pushed him into the decision he already knew he had no choice but to make.

The battle would still have happened, and Frodo and hopefully Sam would probably have still slipped away in the confusion to head off to Mordor.

Merry and Pippin probably wouldn't have been captured, since there would have been no smaller search parties...which leads to a decreased likelihood of the Ents storming Isengard, and possibly a far grimmer Helm's Deep without Huorns to help. Not quite sure what the broader effect of this might be on the Shire, but it's not looking too good from here...Saruman already had dealings with the Shire, but can you imagine a fully-powerful Saruman messing around with the Shire? Not a nice picture.

Frodo and Sam might not have even made it to Mordor, particularly with Boromir in Faramir's place in Ithilien--Boromir has a lot of pride, and he lacks his brother's integrity on the subject of the Ring. He would probably claim the Ring for Gondor, and, unlike Movie!Faramir, he wouldn't realize his mistake until it was too late. At the very very least, this would greatly complicate Aragorn's journey, and would likely set the end of the world in motion.

It would probably have had an impact on the madness of Denethor, but that's pretty tangled. Boromir might not have been poisoned. He's probably stronger in battle than Faramir, and he also probably would have been too valuable for a suicide mission. I'm not so sure as the Palantir wouldn't have pushed Denethor over the edge anyway, so his death is probably a moot point.

On a more of a side note, Eowyn might not have made it through the aftermath of Pelennor Fields without Faramir's care and love.

--

Benamir, what you say is very true... I agree with you that there is no chance at all that Faramir would have been sent to Rivendell, just based upon the cultural norms, and also on Denethor as a character. However, it's fun to think about anyway, and I do think it is notable that Fate or some higher power chose Faramir for the job. He was given the vision, not Boromir.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Duly noted. I completely forgot about the dream!

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor

I think the vital problem with the Faramir-in-the-Fellowship argument is that it seems to stem from the films, in particular a flashback scene in TTT:EE.

What a horrid and unneccessary scene. The "Faramir in Fellowship" argument actually does not stem from the films, and is in the book-

“Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave, and long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay.” (The Fellowship of the Ring, The Council of Elrond)

Originally Posted by Beanamir

The crucial question we're not asking is why Book!Faramir would ever have been sent to Rivendell in the first place. Boromir was the elder son, the favorite of his father, and when Gondor was summoned to the council, Boromir would have been Denethor's first choice, hands down.

The Council of Elrond was not "summoned", if I am correct. Boromir travelled to Imladris to seek the meaning of a riddle, Legolas was there to inform Rivendell of Gollum's escape, etc. It was fate that brought the companions together in Council to address the urgency of such a problem as The One Ring. So Gondor wasn't summoned, and Boromir's words I cited from the Council say it all. It was against Denethor's wish that Boromir went to Rivendell.

Originally Posted by Beanamir

If Movie!Faramir had indeed been in the Fellowship (which would mean that he had been granted trust by his father, and therefore would have been much more self-confident even than Boromir), I get this feeling that he would have taken on an Aragorn-like role: he would have fully recognized his temptation by the Ring, and in the same breath rejected it.

I don't think Faramir would have been self-confident. Not more than Boromir. I also think that you might be right with the Aragorn like role if you were talking about Book Faramir. But Movie Faramir? I can't see that.

Originally Posted by Azaelia

Benamir, what you say is very true... I agree with you that there is no chance at all that Faramir would have been sent to Rivendell, just based upon the cultural norms, and also on Denethor as a character. However, it's fun to think about anyway, and I do think it is notable that Fate or some higher power chose Faramir for the job. He was given the vision, not Boromir.

It is apparent that there was actually a good chance that Faramir would have been sent to Rivendell. If Boromir did not want to take the journey in Faramir's stead, he would have stayed in Gondor. Boromir wanted to go to Rivendell out of protection for his brother.

Also it is untrue that Boromir was not given the vision. The dream came once to him-

“In that dream I thought the eastern sky grew dark and there was a growing thunder, but in the West a pale light lingered, and out of it I heard a voice, remote but clear, crying...” (The Council of Elrond)

Originally Posted by Azaelia

He's probably stronger in battle than Faramir

Probably? Oh no, he WAS much stronger than Faramir. As Faramir explains in The Two Towers-

“Alas that ever he went on that errand! I should have been chosen by my father and the elders, but he put himself forward, as being the older and the hardier (both true), and he would not be stayed.”

As I have said before, if Faramir went in Boromir's stead, the mission would have failed. The Company wouldn't have even made it out of Caradhras if not for Boromir and his strength, as well as his suggestion of taking wood on the mountain for fire.