Was Sauron a Balrog? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

02-05-2008, 12:10 PM

That is a valid argument, yes. On the other hand I must point out that in the Silmarillion Tolkein says that the first spirits to join Melkor and that were the most like unto him were called Balrogs. Now who was the first of the Maiar that followed Melkor? Sauron.

alatar · 02-05-2008, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HurinThalion

That is a valid argument, yes. On the other hand I must point out that in the Silmarillion Tolkein says that the first spirits to join Melkor and that were the most like unto him were called Balrogs. Now who was the first of the Maiar that followed Melkor? Sauron.

But wasn't Sauron of Aulë's kin? He was a Maker, not a Whipper. He might have liked to decorate with flames, but can't remember ever reading that he was always wreathed in flame.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 02-05-2008, 12:32 PM

You can compare the moments when Sauron is introduced and there are balrogs coming also as a separate group. Sauron is mentioned separate from the other balrogs, so he was not one of them. You might say that it's because he was one of Morgoth's captains, thus an important individual figure, but other good evidence is if you look at Gothmog: he was a leader, like Sauron, but we are told he was a balrog. With Sauron, you never read about such a thing.

In other words, Sauron was a Maia of Aulë - while the Balrogs were, I believe, Maiar of Varda (it is said they were originally like Arien). Saruman was also a maia of Aulë - and Sauron was, I believe, no more a Balrog than Saruman was.

Aganzir · 02-05-2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HurinThalion

TOn the other hand I must point out that in the Silmarillion Tolkein says that the first spirits to join Melkor and that were the most like unto him were called Balrogs. Now who was the first of the Maiar that followed Melkor? Sauron.

Treebeard and Tom Bombadil and who knows who else are described as the oldest living creatures in Middle-earth or the first ones to be there. Tolkien's use of superlatives is relative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

But wasn't Sauron of Aulë's kin?

Weren't the balrogs of Aulës kin as well?

edit: xed with Legate

alatar · 02-05-2008, 12:45 PM

And note whereas Balrogs taste like roast chicken, Sauron would taste more feline.

Boromir88 · 02-05-2008, 11:16 PM

Also, I think Legolas' comment about the Balrog in Moria (Durin's Bane) makes it pretty clear that Sauron was not a Balrog:

Quote:

"It was a Balrog of Morgoth," said Legolas; "of all the elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower."~The Mirror of Galadriel

William Cloud Hicklin · 02-05-2008, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Now who was the first of the Maiar that followed Melkor? Sauron.

No. It's never said that he was. Indeed it is said that the Balrogs were first drawn to Melkor: with the strong implication that they turned to him before Arda. They were never of the people of the Valar. Whereas Sauron was a Maia in good standing before he switched sides.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 02-06-2008, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

No. It's never said that he was. Indeed it is said that the Balrogs were first drawn to Melkor: with the strong implication that they turned to him before Arda. They were never of the people of the Valar. Whereas Sauron was a Maia in good standing before he switched sides.

Actually this quote is what I originally thought could have been the origin of the question - but only if the "one" were with small "o".

Aganzir · 02-06-2008, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Indeed it is said that the Balrogs were first drawn to Melkor: with the strong implication that they turned to him before Arda. They were never of the people of the Valar.

Where's that said? I have somehow got the impression that they were of Aulë's people.

02-05-2008, 12:32 PM	#3
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	You can compare the moments when Sauron is introduced and there are balrogs coming also as a separate group. Sauron is mentioned separate from the other balrogs, so he was not one of them. You might say that it's because he was one of Morgoth's captains, thus an important individual figure, but other good evidence is if you look at Gothmog: he was a leader, like Sauron, but we are told he was a balrog. With Sauron, you never read about such a thing. In other words, Sauron was a Maia of Aulë - while the Balrogs were, I believe, Maiar of Varda (it is said they were originally like Arien). Saruman was also a maia of Aulë - and Sauron was, I believe, no more a Balrog than Saruman was. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

02-05-2008, 12:45 PM	#5
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	And note whereas Balrogs taste like roast chicken, Sauron would taste more feline. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

02-05-2008, 12:10 PM	#1
HurinThalion Guest Posts: n/a	That is a valid argument, yes. On the other hand I must point out that in the Silmarillion Tolkein says that the first spirits to join Melkor and that were the most like unto him were called Balrogs. Now who was the first of the Maiar that followed Melkor? Sauron.