Subject for the Second film?

[skip spence]

Could someone help me list what is written about these 60 years between TH and LoTR? This is what I can remember:

The Hobbits drink their ale and plow their earth.

The elves remember the good old days.

Balin goes to Moria and have himself killed.

Gollum goes to Mordor and is caught by Sauron, who's just returned.

He's then caught by Aragorn who is quite busy during this time.

What else?

[davem]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Could someone help me list what is written about these 60 years between TH and LoTR? This is what I can remember:

The Hobbits drink their ale and plow their earth.

The elves remember the good old days.

Balin goes to Moria and have himself killed.

Gollum goes to Mordor and is caught by Sauron, who've just returned.

He's then caught by Aragorn who is quite busy during this time.

What else?

You're forgetting the famous expedition of Drogo Baggins into Far Harad to catch the gigantic gorilla which subsequently ran amok in Minas Tirith & then fell to its death from the Tower of Ecthelion. That should take up a good three hours of screentime...

[davem]

Er.....actually I'd like to see that one......

[skip spence]

^I'd like to see Aragorn cursing his ill fate of falling for an almost unattainable elven princess in his youth.

After all, despite his noble lineage and rugged hunkyness he's very likely to be an 80-year old virgin in LoTR. In high elven culture (which Aragorn is brought up into) marriage is consumated by the union of love, and an elf can see in someone's eye's whether he/she already has a mate.

In Rivendell:

Arwen: "Is so nice talking to you, my love. Meet me again tomorrow and we'll talk again."

Aragorn: "Right. Let's talk again tomorrow. But now I'm going for a a cold shower under a waterfall of icy meltwater from the mountains."

[Essex]

Skip spence: re your query: "Could someone help me list what is written about these 60 years between TH and LoTR?"

This is from the tale of the years:

2942
Bilbo returns to the Shire with the Ring. Sauron returns in secret to Mordor. 2944 Bard rebuilds Dale and becomes King. Gollum leaves the Mountains and begins his search for the 'thief of the Ring.


2948
Théoden son of Thengel. King of Rohan. born.


2949
Gandalf and Balin visit Bilbo in the Shire.


2950
Finduilas, daughter of Adrahil of Dol Amroth, born.


2951
Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor. He begins the rebuilding of Barad-dûr. Gollum turns towards Mordor. Sauron sends three of the Nazgûl to reoccupy Dol Guldur. Elrond reveals to 'Estel' his true name and ancestry, and delivers to him the shards of Narsil. Arwen, newly returned from Lórien, meets Aragorn in the woods of Imladris. Aragorn goes out into the Wild.


2953
Last meeting of the White Council. They debate the Rings. Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea. Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it Being jealous and afraid of Gandalf he sets spies to watch all his movements; and notes his interest in the Shire. He soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the Southfarthing.


2954
Mount Doom bursts into flame again. The last inhabitants of Ithilien flee over Anduin.


2956
Aragorn meets Gandalf and their friendship begins.


2957-80
Aragorn undertakes his great journeys and errantries. As Thorongil he serves in disguise both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor.


2968
Birth of Frodo.


2976
Denethor weds Finduilas of Dol Amroth.


2977
Bain son of Bard becomes King of Dale.


2978
Birth of Boromir son of Denethor II.


2980
Aragorn enters Lórien and there meets again Arwen Undómiel. Aragorn gives her the ring of Barahir. and they plight their troth upon the hill of Cerin Amroth. About this time Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor and becomes acquainted with Shelob. Théoden becomes King of Rohan.


2983
Faramir son of Denethor born. Birth of Samwise.


2984
Death of Ecthelion II. Denethor II becomes Steward of Gondor.


2988
Finduilas dies young.


2989
Balin leaves Erebor and enters Moria.


2991
Éomer Éomund's son born in Rohan.


2994
Balin perishes, and the dwarf-colony is destroyed.


2995
Éowyn sister of Éomer born.


_c._ 3000
The shadow of Mordor lengthens. Saruman dares to use the _palantír _of Orthanc, but becomes ensnared by Sauron, who has the Ithil Stone. He becomes a traitor to the Council. His spies report that the Shire is being closely guarded by the Rangers.?

So plenty to work on. from the above I would like to see:

Gollum searching for the Ring
the rebuilding of Barad-dur
Nazgul occupying Dol Guldur
Elrond explaining aragorn's ancestry
the White Council (and bits form the unfinished tales can be used here)
saruman off to isengard
aragorn / gandalf friendship
frodo born
aragorn / arwen and all it entails!
gollum meets shelob!!
balin - moria - (fights no doubt!) and destruction of the colony
saruman ensared by sauron in the palantir
rangers begin guard of shire

enough for a couple of hours I rekcon!

they could also be a little bit artisitic with the timings and show some form of attack on dol guldur (and retreat by sauron) wich technically takes place during the Hobbit timeline I suppose

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Interesting. I'd forgotten how much could be
made of pre-Bilbo Gollum.

[Elmo]

the White Council (and bits form the unfinished tales can be used here)

I thought they wouldn't be allowed bits from UT ubless Chris Tolkien gave them special permission like the Wormtongue-Nazgul bit in the radio version. And I somehow doubt that'll happen.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Elmo

I thought they wouldn't be allowed bits from UT ubless Chris Tolkien gave them special permission like the Wormtongue-Nazgul bit in the radio version. And I somehow doubt that'll happen.

They can't use UT; in fact, they cannot use part of the LotR appendices either (those parts that deal with events in the 1st and 2nd age, and which are covered in the Silmarillion). I had read once the complete deal negotiated between Saul Zaentz Co. and Tolkien; unfortunately, I can't find the reference any longer. Technically speaking, the film rights are for The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and those parts of the Appendices which don't infringe on Tolkien's other published (or at the time of the deal, unpublished) materials.

Therefore, the Tale of Years from the LotR appendix dating from the 3rd Age should be covered under the film rights.

[Sauron the White]

from Morthoron

they cannot use part of the LotR appendices either (those parts that deal with events in the 1st and 2nd age, and which are covered in the Silmarillion

That opinion goes against every single thing I have ever heard - including long debates on this site - about what rights Zaentz purchased. My understanding is that he bought cover to cover rights with nothing exempted. That would include the Appendicies as written but no more.

I would point out that the film rights were sold BEFORE the publishing of the SIL.

If you have factual documentation to support this new, far more restrictive viewpoint, I would love to read it.

[davem]

I have a recording of Raynor Unwin (Tolkien's publisher & very close friend) at the launch of Unfinished Tales in 1981 in which he states that the reason Tolkien struggled so much with the Appendices to LotR was that he effectively had to 'compress' the whole of the Silmarillion into them. Hence, one could argue that parts of Appendix A & B represent yet another version of the 'Silmarillion' - in fact, one could push it & take the words of Sam & Frodo on the stairs, that they are both part of the story of Beren & Luthien & the Silmaril to claim that what Tolkien actually sold the rights to was a small section of the Legendarium as a whole & that he (or his estate) is obligated to let them have the whole thing, because the Silmarillion is effectively part of LotR (or vice versa) - in fact Tolkien struggled for a long time to get the two works published together, as he felt that LotR could not be understood without a knowledge of the Silmarillion...

And certainly I think its pretty much beyond argument that he would have sold the film rights to the Sil writings when he sold the Hobbit & LotR rights - if anyone had wanted them.

Another interesting comment from Tolkien himself - Humphrey Carpenter related that when he went to see Tolkien to ask him if it was all right to put on a production of the Hobbit at a local school Tolkien told him he thought it was a very sill idea, but who was he (Tolkien) to stop him? He even suggested tunes for the songs (which mostly took the form of Gregorian Chant & which Carpenter decided was hardly right for a prep school production), & went along to see the performance, critiquing it severely at the end (while drinking all the wine from Carpenter's glass...).

In the end, I think its clear that Tolkien's attitude to dramatisation of his work came down to a conviction that the whole idea was 'silly' & bound to fail miserably, but (as long as he was asked for permission & received proper remuneration) it was fine with him.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

That opinion goes against every single thing I have ever heard - including long debates on this site - about what rights Zaentz purchased. My understanding is that he bought cover to cover rights with nothing exempted. That would include the Appendicies as written but no more.

I would point out that the film rights were sold BEFORE the publishing of the SIL.

If you have factual documentation to support this new, far more restrictive viewpoint, I would love to read it.

From personal experience, I can say that there is certainly a delineation point within the appendices -- only I am not quite sure where that exactly is contextually. I am waiting for a call back from one of the senior developers of Lord of the Rings Online (the online Middle-earth MMORPG, current subscriber base approx 300-400k). Lord of the Rings Online has the exclusive contract for the online gaming segment of The Hobbit and LotR proprietary rights owned by Tolkien Enterprises (aka Saul Zaentz Co.).

Having been involved in the game through the alpha and beta processes (and previously while the game was still in design), I can tell you that there are certain things the game cannot show or discuss, including anything dealing with 1st Age Middle-earth in the appendices; however, if there is a mention of a 1st Age name or place within the actual text of either The Hobbit or LotR, then said reference is allowed. For instance, Aragorn referring to Beren and Luthien is allowed because it is in the actual text, but the term 'Valar' or 'Maiar' is not because there is no mention directly in the text. Anything that predates a 3rd Age reference within the game must be passed by Tolkien Enterprises to assure they remain within their rights.

I will offer an update as soon as I hear more.