The true Istari

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Eönwë, I disagree that Gandalf's powers increased because he acquired a new staff. The restrictions set upon him came from across the Sea, not from the type of stick he held in his hand. Saruman became more powerful than Gandalf (in his dealings on Middle-earth) because he ignored the instructions given to him - not because his staff was flashier. Likewise, Gandalf became more powerful after the rules of the game changed, and he was permitted to demonstrate more power.

My theory was that when inside their human bodies the Istari could
not use their power, but the Valar gave them staves (I think thats the right word) to allow them to release their power from inside their body. Maybe the staves were a means of controlling how much power each Istar was given? SO the leader would get the most power, for example. I'm not saying its about how the staff looked, but abot what it could do. I think when Gandalf returned he was granted a new staff which allowd him to use more power so that he could win the war. Saruman used his powers too much, and started using more than his prescribed amount, so he was baihed. Gandalf stayed within the limits, it was just that when he got the new staff, the linits increased so that he wold have a chance against the enemy/ies. Well, thats just what I think anyway.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I've seen it mentioned that, because Gandalf had to get a new staff after Saruman took his, it shows that the ownership of a staff was powerful. I think the opposite: because Gandalf simply got another staff, it suggests that the original staff was not special or imbued with Valar-given powers. And, of course, that he needed to get another staff to walk easier with.

Eonwe, if the staffs were Valar-given and special because of that, then Gandalf must have been powerless from Elrond's council to the Bridge in Moria.

Edit to add: unless the Valar gave him a few staffs, and he stashed the spares in Rivendell, but I doubt this.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Eonwe, if the staffs were Valar-given and special because of that, then Gandalf must have been powerless from Elrond's council to the Bridge in Moria.

Wait, he did have his staff with him from Elrond's council to Moria - actually, these are the moments when we see him doing something with it like baking the wolves or lighting it in the tunnels (and if there are any doubts that it was still the same staff, certainly Saruman did not take his staff from him - we know he had it with him when he escaped with Gwaihir).

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Hmm. That's what happens when I post without consulting books.

Gandalf doesn't mention his staff during his description of Saruman's betrayal. But if the staffs were powerful, wouldn't it make sense for Saruman to have taken it from Gandalf? How do you know Gandalf had it when escaping?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Gandalf doesn't mention his staff during his description of Saruman's betrayal. But if the staffs were powerful, wouldn't it make sense for Saruman to have taken it from Gandalf? How do you know Gandalf had it when escaping?

Frodo's dream at Tom Bombadil's house:

Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon. The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away.

And it's PJ's fault when he's influencing our subconscious with things which are but a lie.

[skip spence]

I don't know the exact significance of the wizard's staff (how could anyone?) but it's clear that it was an important tool of the trade and one no wizard would want to part with. Indeed they seem inseparable, a Istari and his staff. Without it, he is no longer Istari, as the breaking of Saruman's staff signifies.

The importance of the staff is also demonstrated when Gandalf and company went to Edoras to see Theoden. When the company must hand over their weapons at the gate Galdalf refuses, saying it's just a staff for an old man to lean on. Inside, he raises his staff, does some powerful magic trick, and Theoden is cured. If he could do this without his staff, chances are he would have left it at the door, like his friends did their weapons.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Good point, skip. It doesn't sway me quite yet, though (I am a stubborn fellow ).

What if Gandalf was refused permission. Say Hama actually did his job. Would Théoden have remained uncured?

[skip spence]

^As I said, I don't know exactly how much of the Istari's powers are dependant of the staff, as this isn't specified in the texts to my knowledge.

All I'm saying is that they do seem of utmost importance, probably with both a symbolic and a practical significance.

When Sauruman's staff is broken his powers seem vastly decreased as someone already mentioned. He's still a slick talker and well able to cause trouble on a small scale, but no longer a threat to Middle Earth.

And when Gandalf does his fire tricks, the staff is always involved, I believe.

Whether Gandalf could have cured Theoden without his magic tricks, only Eru knows (well perhaps Manwe as well )

[Boromir88]

skip spence, while you do bring up a good instance where Gandalf does use his staff to perform his tricks, I see it the same way as Eomer. Yes, Gandalf does use his staff, but there are several instances, where Gandalf performs magic without using his staff.

His staff breaks on the Bridge of Khazad-dum, and he still has an epic battle (that lasted for days) against Balrog, fought in the "deepest places" to the "highest peak." Also, in ROTK when Gandalf rides out to rescue the men retreating from the Rammas Echor, a white light shines out, not from Gandalf's staff, but from his hand.

So, the staff just seems to be an ordinary piece of wood (that can be replaced fairly easily), but could be used by those with "power" (such as Gandalf) as tools for their power. I find what Hama says with regards to Gandalf's staff very interesting:

'Foolishness!' said Gandalf. 'Prudence is one thing, but discourtesy is another. I am old. If I may not lean on my stick as I go, then I will sit out here, until it pleases Theoden to hobble out himself to speak with me.'
[...]
'The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age.' said Hama. He looked hard at the ash-staff on which Gandalf leaned. 'Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom. I believe you are friends and folk worthy of honour, who have no evil purpose. You may go in.'~The King of the Golden Hall

First, Gandalf tries to play off his staff, as Eomer is arguing, it's a 'walking stick' for an old man. I see no reason to think Gandalf is lying to Hama here either, there are several instances where Gandalf uses his staff for support, but Hama is an astute one:

'The staff in the hand of a wizard may be more than a prop for age.'

Hama realizes the staff is an ordinary piece of wood. But this piece of wood could be used more than a prop for age, however only in the hand of a wizard. Hama makes the point, that the power lies within the wizard, and the wizard may be able to use a staff for more than just leaning on. Nevertheless, it's an ordinary piece of wood.

A piece of wood that could be used for support, a piece of wood that symbolizes the authority of the wizards*, and a piece of wood that could be used for magical power, but the last being only in the "hands of a wizard."

*I'll go back to the note of Saruman's "rods of the 5 wizards" and when it's put in context, you can see the meaning of why Saruman said it:

’Later! Yes, when you also have the Keys of Barad-dûr itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards, and have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those that you wear now.~The Voice of Saruman

Saruman was simply ranting about how Gandalf was growing power hungry. Saruman's last comment seems all to familiar with the "you have grown too big for your own boots." There's no special significance with the "5 rods" it's just a rant from Saruman saying Gandalf was power-hungry.