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#1 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Just to clarify: the Lamps were probably destroyed by the combinated effort of Melkor's fallen-Maia hosts, and with the Trees, he needed the help of Ungoliant.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#2 | |
Leaf-clad Lady
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Quote:
![]() Do I make sense?
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"But some stories, small, simple ones about setting out on adventures or people doing wonders, tales of miracles and monsters, have outlasted all the people who told them, and some of them have outlasted the lands in which they were created." |
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#3 |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
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Reading Tolkien I had a compelling vision af how Glaurung, the first dragon, was 'made'.
I imagine that on some high cliff up on Thangorodrim Morgoth and his Balrogs had a great reptile bound with heavy iron chains. There, under the dark, starless sky, they would chant a long and powerful spell, summoning a fire spirit of the kind that was corrupted by Melkor in ages past. By his crafts, Morgoth would then command the spirit to possess the struggling creature. When it had successfully done so, the reptile, now Glaurung the father of dragons, could feed on noldorin thralls growing ever larger and more cunning. As for the dragon's fire beeing magical, I think it depends on what you mean by magical. A fire-breathing great lizard with a mind far more powerful than a man's is certainly a 'magical' creature, I would say. The fire itself is merely very hot, I imagine. I also think that the dwarven armours could withstand dragons fire to a certain degree, and from some distance. If a dragon blasted a dwarf from point blank range he would no doubt fry like a marshmallow. ![]() Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 01-30-2008 at 01:47 PM. Reason: moderator's modification |
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#4 |
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
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A Little Green, as long as there is a book out there called "The Science of Middle-earth" I wouldn't be so hasty to discard the whole scientific explanation part. So no, to me you're not making that much sense.
Tolkien was no the kind of person to write stuff without thinking it at least a little bit through and everything there has a certain explanation. Now to the dragon idea, the basic theory in pretty much all newer dragon works is that the fire is only created in their mouths through the mixture of two separate chemical substances. And this makes quite a lot sense. Anything that can be pierced by a sword isn't probably capable of taking that much heat. Thus, a dragon himself wouldn't really need to take that heat himself. Aganzir, indeed good criticism. I had not really taken that into account. As I am not really an expert in material qualities I can't really say what would work, but if workers in foundaries have something like that it could be an idea. Although I don't understand what you mean by "lesser spirits", in CoH they are "great spirits" implying Ainur. And I also see no reason why they should not have been. After all Sauron was one of the most powerful Maiar and one of the best smiths. Their weakness is relative.
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“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown |
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#5 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Quote:
Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#6 | |
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
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Indeed, I now realise I was quite hasty there myself.
Especially after finding this (I was actually looking for something to support my idea): Quote:
Still, I am trying to find some explanations.
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“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown |
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#7 | |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
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Quote:
In that movie with dragons in it "Reign of Fire", the fire was caused by a mix of chemicals as you described. I don't think Tolkien imagined his dragons to be anything like those creatures. Last edited by skip spence; 01-30-2008 at 09:31 AM. |
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#8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,538
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Quote:
Some combination of that idea and (other) chemical reactions could have explained the dragons fire breathing. However, I think there is a misconception here. When Galadriel or the Elves say that there is no such thing as magic, they do so from within Middle Earth itself. However, the land of Middle Earth is magical on itself, there are gods walking around and actively interfering with the life of lesser beings, there are dragons and elves and dwarves and mithril and hobbits.... there are also swords that light up when a special kind of enemy is near, there are stones that allow you to spy on your neighbour and there are pieces of jewlery that will let you, if used properly, dominate all beings in existance. Oh, and little crystals that make elves go insane... and as a side-effect, shine with the essence of light itself Surely there is something magical about that? Even though Tolkien made a great effort to make sure that nothing on his tales could be answered by simply "it was magic" or "a wizard did it" it does not mean that everything can be explained by Real Life logic. To me, Middle-Earth has self-consistency but it does not mean that it has consistency with the Real World. I think this is good enough for a new thread, but my point here is the folowing: Dragon-fire it wasn't magic for Middle Earth. They were probably monsters inhabited by fell spirits of fire and made/corrupted through the craft and cunnign (not magic) of a god-like figure. However, for all real life intents and purposes, it was magic. Like we call magic the tricks of an entertainer at a party when we cannot explain it, but we call it a trick when it is told to us. However, we cannot explain "magic" in Middle Earth because the rules we take for granted here do not quite apply to Middle Earth.
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I prepared Explosive Runes this morning. |
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#9 | ||||
Woman of Secret Shadow
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells
Posts: 4,511
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I have a feeling I'm being rather unclear today. Quote:
But isn't that what we fans must do? Although Tolkien is dead, we are still creating and completing Middle-earth, no matter if all we do is to try to find logical solutions to things that don't make sense otherwise. Quote:
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He bit me, and I was not gentle. |
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#10 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Facing the world's troubles with Christ's hope!
Posts: 1,635
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I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men! ~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow Last edited by Groin Redbeard; 01-30-2008 at 01:26 PM. |
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