Small hands do them because they must... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rune Son of Bjarne · 01-28-2008, 06:05 PM

Oh my. . .I think we basicly agree with each other!

Legate of Amon Lanc · 01-28-2008, 06:24 PM

Hey, but that's good, isn't it?

Rune Son of Bjarne · 01-28-2008, 06:26 PM

I guess, I am just not used to agreeing with anyone else than Lal and Davem.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 01-28-2008, 06:36 PM

Oh, then I feel really privileged

Aganzir · 01-29-2008, 03:03 AM

I'm sorry to be boring but I think the main question is "why did Tolkien write that?". He knew Frodo was going to take the ring and that might have been just making way to Frodo saying he'll do that - so that it looked literally credible and Frodo didn't have to shout that just out of the blue.

But why was Frodo willing to take the ring in the first place? Was he already then so affected by it that he wouldn't have surrendered it voluntarily? Did he find it his duty?
Given this and Elrond's gift of foresight, I think Elrond and Gandalf knew Frodo was going to take the ring and were encouraging him. I don't have my copy of Lotr with me at the moment, but if I remember correctly Bilbo said he understood where Elrond was getting at with that small hands thing and said he'd take the ring. At least Gandalf knew quite a deal about hobbits, and I think he might well have guessed they would be the ones to volunteer.

I wonder, though, if it meant something that Frodo volunteered to take the ring. My mind connects it to Gandalf's statement that when Bilbo just after getting the ring spared Gollum's life, the ring didn't have as strong influence on Bilbo as it possibly would have otherwise. If someone had told Frodo to take the ring or otherwise put pressure on him so as to make him do that, would he have been more easily tempted by the ring and abandoned his quest?

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 01-29-2008, 09:24 AM

Just tossing in my two cents, here....

Gandalf (who has long been my favorite character, so I'm not bashing him here) has long had a reputation in ME as a meddler (especially among the Mortals). If he appears to be prodding Frodo into taking the Ring at the Council, it's something he started back when he urged Bilbo to let go of the Ring and let it pass to Frodo. I suspect that, though he no vision of the future that we know of, he had at the very least begun to suspect where Frodo's path was leading back when he first told him the truth about the Ring and asked him what he would now do with it. This whole thing was a very dark business from the start. Even though he and Elrond may have all but known the inevitability of Frodo's fate, it was a path he really had to choose for himself. Are they prodding him toward it or offering false hope by their comments during the Council, or are they offering various options for Frodo's consideration, which he must have the chance to consider whether or not they think this path is fated for him? So many ways of interpreting this, I think.

And I'm beginning to think I ought to make my signature "Call me Ibrin or Ibri."

01-30-2008, 05:01 PM

I think it's interesting how Elrond words his explanation to Frodo, that the task is appointed for him and not to him. Normally one appoints a task to someone, leading me to think that Elrond (whether from foresight or from Gandalf's counsel) understood that Frodo was suited for the job. The decision to accept this "fate," then, lies in Frodo's (small

) hands. But that leads me to pondering the position fate (or maybe, more accurately, chance [the ring "chooses" Bilbo, or just so happens to fall off Gollum's finger at the right time]) has in the whole ordeal, and already I'm confused. I haven't read the books in a while.

01-28-2008, 06:24 PM	#2
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Hey, but that's good, isn't it? __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

01-28-2008, 06:36 PM	#4
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Oh, then I feel really privileged __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

01-29-2008, 03:03 AM	#5
Aganzir Woman of Secret Shadow Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: in hollow halls beneath the fells Posts: 4,511	I'm sorry to be boring but I think the main question is "why did Tolkien write that?". He knew Frodo was going to take the ring and that might have been just making way to Frodo saying he'll do that - so that it looked literally credible and Frodo didn't have to shout that just out of the blue. But why was Frodo willing to take the ring in the first place? Was he already then so affected by it that he wouldn't have surrendered it voluntarily? Did he find it his duty? Given this and Elrond's gift of foresight, I think Elrond and Gandalf knew Frodo was going to take the ring and were encouraging him. I don't have my copy of Lotr with me at the moment, but if I remember correctly Bilbo said he understood where Elrond was getting at with that small hands thing and said he'd take the ring. At least Gandalf knew quite a deal about hobbits, and I think he might well have guessed they would be the ones to volunteer. I wonder, though, if it meant something that Frodo volunteered to take the ring. My mind connects it to Gandalf's statement that when Bilbo just after getting the ring spared Gollum's life, the ring didn't have as strong influence on Bilbo as it possibly would have otherwise. If someone had told Frodo to take the ring or otherwise put pressure on him so as to make him do that, would he have been more easily tempted by the ring and abandoned his quest? __________________ He bit me, and I was not gentle.

01-29-2008, 09:24 AM	#6
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	Just tossing in my two cents, here.... Gandalf (who has long been my favorite character, so I'm not bashing him here) has long had a reputation in ME as a meddler (especially among the Mortals). If he appears to be prodding Frodo into taking the Ring at the Council, it's something he started back when he urged Bilbo to let go of the Ring and let it pass to Frodo. I suspect that, though he no vision of the future that we know of, he had at the very least begun to suspect where Frodo's path was leading back when he first told him the truth about the Ring and asked him what he would now do with it. This whole thing was a very dark business from the start. Even though he and Elrond may have all but known the inevitability of Frodo's fate, it was a path he really had to choose for himself. Are they prodding him toward it or offering false hope by their comments during the Council, or are they offering various options for Frodo's consideration, which he must have the chance to consider whether or not they think this path is fated for him? So many ways of interpreting this, I think. And I'm beginning to think I ought to make my signature "Call me Ibrin or Ibri."

01-30-2008, 05:01 PM	#7
Hywel Guest Posts: n/a	I think it's interesting how Elrond words his explanation to Frodo, that the task is appointed for him and not to him. Normally one appoints a task to someone, leading me to think that Elrond (whether from foresight or from Gandalf's counsel) understood that Frodo was suited for the job. The decision to accept this "fate," then, lies in Frodo's (small ) hands. But that leads me to pondering the position fate (or maybe, more accurately, chance [the ring "chooses" Bilbo, or just so happens to fall off Gollum's finger at the right time]) has in the whole ordeal, and already I'm confused. I haven't read the books in a while.