Small hands do them because they must...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Interesting topic, LG. Though personally I think, as we Czechs say, that the dog is buried elsewhere, there may be something to what you are saying here. Elrond indeed seems to hint something, to me it rather looks like that he knows Frodo is going to take the task, but (hypocritically?) tries to push the thought backwards and tries to look, or maybe even convince himself to think, that anybody can be chosen yet. I just imagined the funny situation that often happens among schoolchildren or so: a request is raised and every high Elf Lord just sits and looks to the ground and thinks "Let's be silent and pretend that I am not here, Frodo will eventually take it".

Anyway, I believe with a little good will at least the second quote you provided can be relativised: Bilbo could write the sequel even if the quest did not concern Frodo personally, because the tale would still concern Bilbo's Ring (which is actually why the old hobbit stood up in the first place, so the idea that Gandalf's response should be understood in this way is very plausible here).

Heh we have the same saying in Denmark. . .

I am not convinced by your arguments, they just don't fit with the view I have of the different characters. Why would Elrond try to convince him self that another choise could be made if that was not indeed the case?
Is it not more plausible that Elrond is saying these things to give Frodo a chance to take this task, he seems to be ensuring Frodo that he is just as able to take this task as anybody else. If not directly encouraging Frodo to take the task. . . . For me it seems likely that a hobbit amongst great Dwarven, Elven and Human worriors would feel small and insignificant and thus be discouraged from taking the ring.

Yeah Bilbo could definitly write a sequal no matter who embarked on the jurney to Mount Doom, but it does seem more likely that he would do so if it included Frodo.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I am not convinced by your arguments, they just don't fit with the view I have of the different characters. Why would Elrond try to convince him self that another choise could be made if that was not indeed the case?
Is it not more plausible that Elrond is saying these things to give Frodo a chance to take this task, he seems to be ensuring Frodo that he is just as able to take this task as anybody else. If not directly encouraging Frodo to take the task. . . . For me it seems likely that a hobbit amongst great Dwarven, Elven and Human worriors would feel small and insignificant and thus be discouraged from taking the ring.

I'm not sure you understood me correctly (or if yes, then I misunderstood you ). I was referring to the time before Frodo said that he's going to take the Ring. I mean that if Elrond had some foreknowledge that Frodo is going to take the Ring, he deliberately tried to behave as if he didn't know that, and asked the question as if anyone could have said "I'll go". What I said was supposed to aim to the opposition of what LG suggested, that maybe Elrond pushed Frodo to take the Ring by his remarks about small hands. I say otherwise: Elrond knew that Frodo is going to take the Ring, so he (unintentionally?) let out the remark about small hands, but he tried the choice to look free, even though he knew how it's going to end.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think it was me who misunderstood you. . .I think.

Let me just say that I find it very hard to belive that Elrond would say stuff like that unintentionally.

Secondly unless he had some sort of forthsight then I really doubt that he knew the outcome! He probably had a good idea what the outcome would be and which outcome would be most desirable, but even the very wise cannot see all ends.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Let me just say that I find it very hard to belive that Elrond would say stuff like that unintentionally.

It is true. Maybe it really was his attempt to encourage Frodo - but I wouldn't call it "pushing", indeed, rather a remark to raise the spirits of the present people with "smaller hands", especially when a recount of famous high kings' deeds and world-shaking events preceded. Or it was simply a general remark and had nothing to do with the situation, or was not meant to (even though from looking backwards it was obvious its meaning deeply touched the present situation).

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Secondly unless he had some sort of forthsight then I really doubt that he knew the outcome! He probably had a good idea what the outcome would be and which outcome would be most desirable, but even the very wise cannot see all ends.

Well by "knew" I did not mean really "knew", but rather something like "presumed"; and I take even his words to Frodo later ("If I understand aright all that I have heard, I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will.") rather as prophetic than visionary; not that he would really know the future, but rather that he perceives very well the present and thus can say this. The moments when someone's foresight shows something concrete from the future that's not trackable from the present are really rare in M-E (and currently I remember only Malbeth or Dírhael and Ivorwen, or Huor at the retreat from Nirnaeth), and this one does not seem like that. And Elrond concludes this speech of his by other words showing his thinking: "Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?"

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Oh my. . .I think we basicly agree with each other!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hey, but that's good, isn't it?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I guess, I am just not used to agreeing with anyone else than Lal and Davem.