Lack of respect displayed by Gimli

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Perhaps the tomb made up for Gimli's lack of height?

Thats a pretty fair assessment!

i thought Alatar's comment about fighting from horseback is valid... i mean, wouldn't his reach be somewhat limited? especially if he's fighting with an axe - he'd surely be at a disadvantage.

[Sauron the White]

from Alatar

But I thought that Gimli admits later - at least in the Books - that he wouldn't do well fighting from horseback, and yet he places himself above his enemies (and behind his companions), which, to me, would be less than advantageous.

If you look at the height that Gimli was working from on Balins tomb, the swing of his axe would have been perfect for an orcs head. I believe it would be a good foot or two shorter than if he were mounted upon the back of a decent sized horse. The foe who has to swing up at a defender usually is at the disadvantage. Gimli probably knows that as a hardened warrior.

I also think that he was making something of a statement with his stance and body language which is mirrored by his words 'let them know that there is one Dwarf left....etc" and sorry but that is a paraphrase and not a quote. He wanted to be the center of attraction for the invading Moria orcs and that was one way to do it distinguishing himself from his companions who were on the ground.

[Meriadoc1961]

For what it's worth, I found both of these scenes disrespectful, and totally unnecessary, even though we have been told that movies are different than books.

NO ONE should have been allowed to sit on the Steward's throne, other than the rightful Steward, and NO ONE would have allowed it! Forget about Aragorn and Gandalf! There are always guards in this sort of room to ENSURE that this sort of thing never happens! Pretending that there would be no guards in a room such as that, the throne room of a race and kingdom as ancient and noble in heritage as Gondor was, is beyond belief, just as it is beyond belief that Gandalf would be allowed to BEAT WITH HIS STAFF the Lord Denethor without ANY repercussions! That is truly stupidity put on display.

This really is not as trivial as some believe. This sort of outright disrespect, the sitting on the throne and the beating of the Lord of this people, would have led to a dissolving of any fellowship between the races. I will not buy at all into any "books are books, and movies are movies" arguments. They will not work.

Merry

[Sauron the White]

from Meriadoc1961

I will not buy at all into any "books are books, and movies are movies" arguments. They will not work.

Meriadoc... perhaps you are cross reading several different threads and are rather confused about the discussion here. We are discussing the merits, or lack of merit, to the depiction of Gimli on Balins tomb and later on Denethors throne. Both are film scenes and have nothing to do with the books.

The argument that you do not like - "books are books and movies are movies" (or perhaps the reality that you do not like to recognize) has often come from me .... but not in this thread and does not apply to this discussion. I have said repeatedly that we should judge the films by what works or does not work as a film. And that is what each post in this thread has attempted to do so far. So the whole film/movie thing has nothing to do with this right now.

You are attacking a line of debate that has not been used here.

It could well apply in other threads which compare the books to the movies and then make a judgement about the two. But not this one.

Regarding your point that nobody would be allowed on the stewards throne..... since the steward has just died - rather disgracefully at that - and no new one had yet been installed, I took it that the throne room was being used as some sort of battle central with meetings and planning. The formality of the room was temporarily dispensed with due to emergency circumstances. After all, it was wartime. To stand on polite ceremony in the middle of war is asking a bit much when there is much more at stake.

[Quempel]

Originally Posted by Meriadoc1961

For what it's worth, I found both of these scenes disrespectful, and totally unnecessary, even though we have been told that movies are different than books.

NO ONE should have been allowed to sit on the Steward's throne, other than the rightful Steward, and NO ONE would have allowed it! Forget about Aragorn and Gandalf! There are always guards in this sort of room to ENSURE that this sort of thing never happens! Pretending that there would be no guards in a room such as that, the throne room of a race and kingdom as ancient and noble in heritage as Gondor was, is beyond belief, just as it is beyond belief that Gandalf would be allowed to BEAT WITH HIS STAFF the Lord Denethor without ANY repercussions! That is truly stupidity put on display.

This really is not as trivial as some believe. This sort of outright disrespect, the sitting on the throne and the beating of the Lord of this people, would have led to a dissolving of any fellowship between the races. I will not buy at all into any "books are books, and movies are movies" arguments. They will not work.

Merry

I disagree, totally. Gandalf was with the King of Gondor, not the Stewart of Gondor. And last time I checked, King out ranked Stewart. As for Aragorn, he could and would have the right to sit on, tear down, color all over, feed his dog, have his friends sit on any seat in the hall. After all he was King. And it's good to be the King.

As for the beating of Denathor...I agree it probably was way over the top and not very Tolkien like. But it sure was fun to watch.

And the guards....would you go up against Gandalf? I wouldn't, I'd be afraid he'd turn me into a toad or a moth. I don't particularly like being either.

[Boromir88]

As for Aragorn, he could and would have the right to sit on, tear down, color all over, feed his dog, have his friends sit on any seat in the hall. After all he was King. And it's good to be the King.~Quempel

Aragorn wasn't crowned King just yet, so he actually couldn't just do whatever he pleases. And the attitude of "I'm King I do what I want" never seems to historically work out for the Kings who felt that way. Even Kings have boundaries and etiquette to follow. Aragorn has enough dignity to not trash the Steward's throne. Seeing as he let's Faramir hold the office of Steward, even after becoming King, Aragorn definitely has more respect for HIS country...even if he likes beheading messengers (oops that's part of a different discussion )

We are discussing the merits, or lack of merit, to the depiction of Gimli on Balins tomb and later on Denethors throne. Both are film scenes and have nothing to do with the books.~STW

Actually the discussion has very much to do with the books. As much as one might like to try and keep the two seperate, it's impossible to do so because it is the same story. This tends to happen when you get the disclaimer at the beginning of the movies..."based off of ________"

The bottomline being Gimli is a character who gets reduced to disrespectful and at times gross humour. Standing on Balin's tomb doesn't seem to be so much so as reclining on the Steward's throne having a smoke. And just to point out what WCH already did, Faramir was the Ruling Steward at this time, so Denethor abusing his power and being dead is not a valid excuse (at least in my opinion).

[Sauron the White]

from Sauron the White

Quote:
We are discussing the merits, or lack of merit, to the depiction of Gimli on Balins tomb and later on Denethors throne. Both are film scenes and have nothing to do with the books.~STW

reply from Boromir 88

Actually the discussion has very much to do with the books. As much as one might like to try and keep the two seperate, it's impossible to do so because it is the same story. This tends to happen when you get the disclaimer at the beginning of the movies..."based off of ________"

I understand your point but I think it is important to go back to the very first post in this thread to see what the intent of the poster was. MatthewM very clearly indicated that he was talking about the way Gimli was being used in the movie. His argument is based on a misuse of Gimli within the movie. I think that is the proper and very legitimate approach in discussing the films.

The replies here, and there have been many coming at this from various angles, have concerned themselves with the world of the films - as I think is right.

Aragorn may not have yet assumed the crown in a formal ceremony but by that time in the tale, everyone knew , including all in that throne room, who Aragorn was and what his position was. Quempel had a great point in that if Aragorn wanted Gimli to sit in the chair of the vacant steward, then that certainly is okay. Who in that room was going to challenge that boon extended to Gimli by Aragorn? And I think they had far greater things on their minds than the mere courtesy extended to a chair and who it did or did not represent.

[Boromir88]

I think that is the proper and very legitimate approach in discussing the films.~Sauron

I can agree with that...for me though what I find disrespectful in a book is most likely what I will also find disrespectful in a movie. Anyway, as I said, I thought the approach to Gimli standing on Balin's tomb was a good one, and a good argument.

And I think they had far greater things on their minds than the mere courtesy extended to a chair and who it did or did not represent.

But here I will have to bring up the books, because Aragorn (even amidst a war that would decide the fate of everyone) had the courtesy and respect to not walk into Minas Tirith while there was still political turmoil. The Last Debate was held outside the walls, and despite Aragorn being urged to claim the Kingship, he denies precisely because there is a war going on and he doesn't want Gondor to be dragged further down into this political vaccuum. Yes Aragorn could have made the claim to the throne, and probably would have been accepted, but he had the respect and decency to know that Sauron was still the enemy.

[MatthewM]

Quite a few things to address. Your comments were disrespectful to me, StW, and I will post whatever topics I please concerning my grudges with the films. Hair color is a big deal to me. Get over it. Alatar said it best - to each his own.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

MatthewM very clearly indicated that he was talking about the way Gimli was being used in the movie. His argument is based on a misuse of Gimli within the movie. I think that is the proper and very legitimate approach in discussing the films.

Do not speak for me. Apparently the subject of the thread was not "clearly indicated" to you, for Boro88 is correct. This thread, although showcasing a movie flaw, has everything to do with the books. Let me try to explain this to you.

The book was written.
Years later, the movies based off the book are filmed.

How in the world are you going to continue to preach on how movies are movies and books are books? I understand that these are two very different medias, and the films have to be treated in a certain way - but the fact remains that Peter Jackson was basing his films on J.R.R. Tolkien's beloved books.

There are some things in the films that should not have been, for they are contrary to the books.

Gimli sitting on the vacant Steward's chair is completely disrespectful.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And just to point out what WCH already did, Faramir was the Ruling Steward at this time, so Denethor abusing his power and being dead is not a valid excuse (at least in my opinion).

Agreed.