The Witch King....shall rise again!?! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Legate of Amon Lanc · 01-17-2008, 06:52 AM

Well it is a possibility, but... I would expect at maximum them becoming spirits like Sauron, in fact harmless. There were these ideas about Elven spirits who refused to go to Mandos, so something like that. But nevertheless, they will no longer be in human bodies but only in the wraith-world, maybe from time to time scaring a woodcutter from Rhun during his night walk, but that's about all they could do.

zxcvbn · 01-17-2008, 07:12 AM

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Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well it is a possibility, but... I would expect at maximum them becoming spirits like Sauron, in fact harmless. There were these ideas about Elven spirits who refused to go to Mandos, so something like that. But nevertheless, they will no longer be in human bodies but only in the wraith-world, maybe from time to time scaring a woodcutter from Rhun during his night walk, but that's about all they could do.

Well, I believe we have reached an agreement here. Because just now, in the Letters of JRRT I found this:

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The Witch-king had been reduced to impotence. Tolkien footnote below Letter 246

This indicates that instead of 'passing on' the Nazgul remained in Middle earth as impotent spirits like their master Sauron. If they could not, over time, regain enough strength to take physical form again, then they would have the same situation as you mentioned. Then maybe they would return at the Dagor Dagorath along with their master?

Legate of Amon Lanc · 01-17-2008, 07:20 AM

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Originally Posted by zxcvbn

Well, I believe we have reached an agreement here.

Indeed, seems so

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Originally Posted by zxcvbn

Then maybe they would return at the Dagor Dagorath along with their master?

I always thought that. I have to say, I am not very strong in this Dagor Dagorath stuff, but I always imagined that all the bad guys will return in full strength (or less full strength

) to battle the good guys... so that would include even the Ringwraith.

William Cloud Hicklin · 01-17-2008, 07:55 AM

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But Tolkien kept changing his mind on many things. That's why he wrote 'the New Shadow' which featured a new Dark Lord rising just 100 years after LOTR

But that's not so. What there is of The New Shadow implies a neo-Sauronian cult arising, but there's no suggestion at all of an actual Dark Lord. Tolkien said of it that it would have been just a "thriller:' "not worth doing." In fact I believe it's in the same letter that he observed that Sauron was the last Incarnation of evil.

The New Shadow, consistent with what T said elsewhere about the Age of Men, is about Men's easy satiety with good and peace and comfort, all on their own without a Diabolus live and present.

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*Everything* created and sustained by the power of the Rings was ended when the One went into the fire. Barad-dur collapsed because its Ring-made foundations crumbled. The Ringwraiths' existence is not some special and irreversible status bestowed by their Rings: it is merely an extreme case of the unnatural longevity experienced by Bilbo and Gollum. Just as Bilbo rapidly resumed his proper physical age when the Ring was destroyed, so did the Nazgul (their natural age of course being several thousand years, meaning very very dead). As Gollum said, "When the Precious goes, we'll die, yes, die into dusst."

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I don't think some nice pacifistic Faramir-like Numenorean would have been suckered by one of the Nine. Like the One, their temptation was the offer of Power: those who aren't interested aren't buying.

The Might · 01-17-2008, 10:43 AM

So much posting...
Anyway, zxcvbn (you really must change you name) I believe WCH is correct about the WK only having been reduced to impotence till the destruction of the Ring and him dying afterwards.
I thought he was around myself, forgot however that the note was reffering to the time before the destruction of the Ring.

Gwathagor...

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"Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the sun and the Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searching flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged. ~ BoLT II, VI

And a bit different:

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"Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged." ~ TSoMe III, 19

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"When the world is much older, and the Gods weary, Morgoth will come back through the Door, and the last battle of all will be fought. Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Hurin shall be avenged." ~ TSoMe II, 19

obloquy · 01-17-2008, 11:33 AM

Wickli is 100% correct. Very nice posts.

zxcvbn · 01-17-2008, 11:40 AM

We seem to be veering off topic here. Anyway, I'd like to add to WCH's post that the canonicity of the Second Prophecy of Mandos is doubtful, and that in his last years Tolkien was planning to transfer the return of Turin to the battle at the end of the War of Wrath.

01-17-2008, 06:52 AM	#1
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Well it is a possibility, but... I would expect at maximum them becoming spirits like Sauron, in fact harmless. There were these ideas about Elven spirits who refused to go to Mandos, so something like that. But nevertheless, they will no longer be in human bodies but only in the wraith-world, maybe from time to time scaring a woodcutter from Rhun during his night walk, but that's about all they could do. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

01-17-2008, 11:33 AM	#6
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	Wickli is 100% correct. Very nice posts.

01-17-2008, 11:40 AM	#7
zxcvbn Wight Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: In front of my PC Posts: 164	We seem to be veering off topic here. Anyway, I'd like to add to WCH's post that the canonicity of the Second Prophecy of Mandos is doubtful, and that in his last years Tolkien was planning to transfer the return of Turin to the battle at the end of the War of Wrath.