The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Movies
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-16-2008, 08:22 PM   #1
MatthewM
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
MatthewM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 628
MatthewM has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to MatthewM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauron the White View Post
If you have something to say, please, get it off your chest, step up to the mic and say it loud and proud. I am not a child and can take it. Just so nobody jumps to any conclusions, please provide me with a link to where you brought this up five years ago so we can put that charge to rest and move on.
I said what I needed to say. However, what I meant there was that - I do not think vulgarity would be welcome at the Downs. Vulgarity it would be. I am sure you are not alien to such a thing, acting like you do, correct?

Quote:
Perhaps you are inexperienced or very young and do not know how these things work so allow me to help you acquire some basic understanding. You ask me to show you a negative..... something that does NOT happen. You will discover that one cannot prove a negative. In point of fact, and it has already been brought out here by others, Bernard Hill was an actor approaching sixty years old - fifty-eight to be exact. At the time of his death in the books, I believe Theoden was seventy-two. Both were indeed older men in the last section of thie lives. And Hill did portray an older man, enfeebled by Saruman, who was facing the challenges of his own doubts about his rule and place with his ancestors who he believed were superior to him.
Pray tell what you are trying to preach. They could have made Hill's hair grey and his beard longer. They chose not to - therefore, although he was old, he was not accurately portrayed appearance wise - I said nothing about character wise.


Quote:
Thats okay . People often find it very difficult to laugh or even smile at themselves and their own foibles. You would not be the first to have that charteristic. Its okay.
I simply find you a nuisance. There is nothing to laugh at - I proposed a question and expected members to post their thoughts - not preach on how good the movies are, like you always seem to do.


Quote:
I do not have to spend lengthy time telling you why the changes were made and certainly do not want to turn blue. Its obvious why the changes were made to anyone with an IQ above 75 --- a book and a film are two different things with different constructions, characteristics, demands and ways to tell a story. That should be obvious and a point which is made in mere seconds.
Wow, good one. Again...shocker.

Quote:
Overall however, the films are a spectacular achievement.
Who said that they weren't? Wow, again, off the subject.
__________________
"Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring
MatthewM is offline  
Old 01-16-2008, 10:23 PM   #2
Sauron the White
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
Sauron the White has just left Hobbiton.
MatthewM ... my initial point to you was a very simple one. I said that your observation about the age of Theoden could not have been too damaging to the films success since it took you five years to come up with the point. You said I was mistaken, that it had not taken you five years. I then asked you very clearly

Quote:
please provide me with a link to where you brought this up five years ago so we can put that charge to rest and move on.
Of course, you failed to produce this which confirms my original suspicion that this is something that just dawned on you and is not really a very serious problem with the films. After all, it sat there for five years.

I have no idea what you are alluding to about vulgarity. Why would you need to be vulgar when we are discussing something like this?

You claim that my repeated statement that a book is one thing while a film is quite another is something that you well know. In fact you say

Quote:
Wow, good one. Again...shocker
Your attempt at some level of sarcasm fails because of one very damning fact. It was you, in your original post, who said

Quote:
Why do you suppose Jackson made King Théoden (and in turn his son Théodred) appear about 20-30 years younger than Tolkien described him in the book?
It is you - MatthewM - who brought up the comparison on what the book says and what the movie shows and then casts negativity upon the movie because, in your opinion, the movie changed something.

If you know that books are one thing and films are another, why are you comparing two very different things?

And even now, in your very latest post, you still continue to do it even though you maintain that you know the difference:

Quote:
They could have made Hill's hair grey and his beard longer. They chose not to - therefore, although he was old, he was not accurately portrayed appearance wise
Accurately portrayed????? By what standard of measurement are you judging accuracy? Obviously from the holding up of the book to the film. You claim you know the difference and attack me for constantly reminding people of it but you slip back into error even now.

Its interesting to note that your assesment of age difference was off by many years. Bernard Hill was 14 years younger than Theoden. Your high end estimate of 30 years difference was off by a factor of over 100%. Even though your comparison serves no point, you were not even correct in the factual assumption you made. Even that was incorrect.

As a personal aside to you, its sad that you could not notice my closing comments in my post to you since I was attempting to show you that there is common ground between us. I agreed with several of your statements and even went further agreeing that Jackson was not perfect and has flaws in his films.

I have never met you or talked to you or exchanged any mails with you. However, you do strike me as either a much younger person who has some insecurity problems or a person with some anger issues. You can post any way you decide to post. I would think a little less personal anger would go much further to making your point about salient issues.
Sauron the White is offline  
Old 01-16-2008, 10:55 PM   #3
Gwathagor
Shade with a Blade
 
Gwathagor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A Rainy Night In Soho
Posts: 2,512
Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Send a message via AIM to Gwathagor Send a message via MSN to Gwathagor Send a message via Skype™ to Gwathagor
MatthewM: I, too, find StW a nuisance.
__________________
Stories and songs.
Gwathagor is offline  
Old 01-17-2008, 05:48 AM   #4
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwathagor View Post
MatthewM: I, too, find StW a nuisance.
I think you're being slightly unfair there - STW judges the quality of the movies based on how much money they've made & how many people know of them.

This is a valid approach - its fairly obvious that if you apply the same criteria in judging people you find that those who are rich & famous are in every way superior to those who are poor & unknown ...
davem is offline  
Old 01-17-2008, 06:07 AM   #5
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Shield

There's no need for this silliness. I've just been on another website which allows comments and the aggression there was pitiful to see. Let's talk nicely.

I for one have no problem with the appearance of film-Théoden. To me, Bernard Hill was a perfectly fine old man to play the part. I would have thought that, out of everyone, it would be our older Downers who saw such differences in age.

The issue of Frodo's age (as well as his differences in age with the other hobbits) seems like a more interesting topic.

There are far more annoying things about the films. Even if I loved every part of the films, though, I wouldn't mind one bit about Théoden's 'youth'.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline  
Old 01-17-2008, 06:34 AM   #6
zxcvbn
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In front of my PC
Posts: 164
zxcvbn has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davem View Post
I think you're being slightly unfair there - STW judges the quality of the movies based on how much money they've made & how many people know of them.

This is a valid approach - its fairly obvious that if you apply the same criteria in judging people you find that those who are rich & famous are in every way superior to those who are poor & unknown ...
Unless that was sarcasm, I find your comment on StW both unfounded and insulting. I could counter by saying that many purists tend to judge people's level of competency(both in general and with regards to Tolkien lore) based on whether or not they support the movies. I remember readng purist comments like '80% of movie viewers are Aragorn/Legolas fangirls, it'll died down eventually' and 'there's no point teaching class to the classless' on various internet forums in past years.

Worst of all are those purists who pretend to be guardians of JRRT's legacy and adopt a patronising tone towards movieists, only to embarrass themselves by showing that they often know less than the movieists(not here, places like the Tolkien forum).

Now I guess I'm a nuisance for purists too.

Now back on topic. Like Eomer of the Rohirrim said, Bernard Hill is perfectly fine as Theoden. He's still an old man, and his acting performance more than makes up for the difference in appearance. BTW, did the books ever say that Theoden had grey hair?

EDIT: BTW, davem, my post may have seemed too inflammatory. I have nothing personal against you; I just thought your criticism of STW was unfair and was defending him.

Last edited by zxcvbn; 01-17-2008 at 08:22 AM.
zxcvbn is offline  
Old 01-17-2008, 09:57 AM   #7
A Little Green
Leaf-clad Lady
 
A Little Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,571
A Little Green is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.A Little Green is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.A Little Green is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.A Little Green is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to A Little Green
Excuse me, all of you, but I must say I just hate the way so many threads seem to end up in the purist/movieist -debate. I see the debate as entirely pointless and indeed ridiculous. As an outside watcher, I find it weird that a question as simple and neutral as Théoden's age should be transformed into insults, anger, and evil jokes.

I, for my part, think Bernard Hill was an excellent Théoden, and the role was nice and whole. Anyway, the question I think was not on whether Bernard Hill succeeded as Théoden but rather why wasn't he made older. Simple as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zxcvbn
BTW, did the books ever say that Theoden had grey hair?
Not exactly grey, but yes, it does say he had white hair and beard. Here's the passage:
Quote:
Upon it sat a man so bent with age that he seemed almost a dwarf; but his white hair was long and thick and fell in great braids from beneath a thin golden circlet set upon his brow.
__________________
"But some stories, small, simple ones about setting out on adventures or people doing wonders, tales of miracles and monsters, have outlasted all the people who told them, and some of them have outlasted the lands in which they were created."
A Little Green is offline  
Old 01-17-2008, 10:34 AM   #8
Sauron the White
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 903
Sauron the White has just left Hobbiton.
from A Little Green

Quote:
Anyway, the question I think was not on whether Bernard Hill succeeded as Théoden but rather why wasn't he made older. Simple as that.
And why should he be made to be older when Hill as Theoden was already depicted as old?

The implication does not even have to be surmised as the answer is directly in the first post by MatthewM to begin this thread

Quote:
Why do you suppose Jackson made King Théoden (and in turn his son Théodred) appear about 20-30 years younger than Tolkien described him in the book?


It right there clear as crystal. The poster is comparing the Theoden of the book to the Theoden of the movie. That is his standard and that is the basis upon which he frames his question.

One cannot judge the qualities and success of one medium by applying standards
and qualities of quite another. That is fundamentally flawed and unfair. It serves no end or purpose but one: to continue a debate which you yourself characterize as pointless and ridiculous.

In point of fact, the real question is indeed whether Theoden as portrayed in the film worked in the context of the medium of film.
Sauron the White is offline  
Closed Thread


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:47 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.