What was Shelob, and more importantly, what was Ungoliant?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

In this theory, it isn't an opposition but a necessary part of a whole.

But Eru is not part of the whole, for he created it.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

But Eru is not part of the whole, for he created it.

You mean he's a TimBit? (gotta be Canuck to get this).

[Gwathagor]

I get it, I get it. And I'm not even Canadian.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

But Eru is not part of the whole, for he created it.

It depends. If it all came from him then he is naturally a part of it as it all reflects his essence.

Originally Posted by obloquy

The idea that the texts Tolkien translated contain inaccuracies--or, at least, demonstrate a subjective viewpoint, limited in knowledge and/or understanding--is a good one. So good, in fact, that I pointed it out many posts ago with reference to Ungoliante's origin myth. But I do not see how this is what you were referring to in the first place where, it appears to me, you asked a question which you had already demonstrated your own answer to. You asked, Can we separate the mythos from Tolkien as creator? while you had already admonished us not to forget certain possibilities of which Tolkien was unaware, or at least not himself the creator. I have no substantial disagreement with the portion quoted in this post; though I would say that the Eldar's understanding of Ungoliante ought to be considered pretty good, keeping in mind their relationship with the Ainur. Whether the knowledge of the wiser Eldar is what is recorded in Tolkien's work I do not know.

And there's the rub. How you perceive Ungoliant and whether you speculate on things about her that are not written down by Tolkien depends upon whether you take onboard the 'translator' conceit and accept that as in any translation there can be odd things which do not cross over well and which after further investigation lead you to surprising conclusions (as for example in translations of Biblical text from the original Hebrew). Or if you take this text as simply something Tolkien wrote and which baldly does not allow for such exploration.

You can do either really, to fit your argument and it would still be OK

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

It depends. If it all came from him then he is naturally a part of it as it all reflects his essence.

Would you agree that it is better to say, instead, that it is all a part of Him, since it came from Him? I think it's an important distinction, in the same way that a genus is not part of a species.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Would you agree that it is better to say, instead, that it is all a part of Him, since it came from Him? I think it's an important distinction, in the same way that a genus is not part of a species.

Not that I would agree with Lal about Eru, but even this formulation of yours is getting very close to something that is called pantheism, which I think is also not Eru's case. Obviously, Arda is not a "part of him".

Anyway, what was the topic of the thread? *hint hint*

[Gwathagor]

NO NO NO NO NO NO! Heaven forbid. Allow me to underline the fact that I am NOT, never have been, and never will be a Pantheist. I had in mind more the idea of a sustaining, imaginative, creative will and grace, rather than a "god is in the rocks" concept. I do see how my post could have been construed that way, though. I tread dangerous ground.

My point was that Ungoliant shouldn't be viewed as any kind of opposite to Eru, who is really much too big to be compared to anything.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

NO NO NO NO NO NO! Heaven forbid. Allow me to underline the fact that I am NOT, never have been, and never will be a Pantheist. I had in mind more the idea of a sustaining, imaginative, creative will and grace, rather than a "god is in the rocks" concept. I do see how my post could have been construed that way, though. I tread dangerous ground.

My point was that Ungoliant shouldn't be viewed as any kind of opposite to Eru, who is really much too big to be compared to anything.

Interestingly, Melkor is "in the rocks." And presumably so are the others who participated in creation, though none poured more of their vitality into physical things than Melkor.

You're correct about Iluvatar and Ungoliante: Ungoliante is part of creation, necessarily, because of what we know of Iluvatar, and Iluvatar is above and detached from creation. It seems unlikely that Iluvatar would have created his opposite, and it seems impossible that he could have created her with power commensurate with his own.

However, the idea that Ungoliante was a negative byproduct of the positive act of creation is pretty cute, though it would seem to deprive Iluvatar of absolute omnipotence by subjecting him to a law that, in a way, would regulate his creative energy; and, assuming that he did not institute the law, undermines his primacy as well. Also interesting is Lalwende's idea--if I understand her point--that Iluvatar is only omnipotent and eternal relative to his own creation--information which would be promulgated only on a need-to-know basis (and the Eldar do not need to know). He is Almighty in the eyes of the Ainur and all orders below them, even though he may have peers, some of whom (e.g. Ungoliante) might potentially interfere with his universe. Unfortunately, this kind of speculation does not produce much of value and, ultimately, leads only to dead ends.

[Gwathagor]

Not a negative byproduct of a positive creation, but rather a negative byproduct of a warped positive creation. Creation in its original perfection couldn't have produced Ungoliant, but the discord that resulted from Melkor's rebellion could. And don't call it cute.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Not a negative byproduct of a positive creation, but rather a negative byproduct of a warped positive creation. Creation in its original perfection couldn't have produced Ungoliant, but the discord that resulted from Melkor's rebellion could. And don't call it cute.

Hmmm, though wouldn't that mean that Ungoliant was in fact created by Melkor? Who could not create but only corrupt? She is clearly not a part of Melkor in any way, as not only does he make an attempt to enslave/enlist her, but she is able to leave him and instead be 'mistress of her own lusts'. That suggests to me she is at the very least a peer of Melkor as none of the beings he 'creates' (i.e. corrupts from other beings) seem to be able to do much more than lip service towards genuine independence.

Of course creation in its 'original perfection' did produce Melkor. So what does that say about the 'perfection' of creation?