What was Shelob, and more importantly, what was Ungoliant?

[zxcvbn]

What's the problem? Beorn was a Man. Tolkien said so and that's it. Yes, he was a shapeshifter, so you can put him in the same category as the Druedain and the Dale-men(who could talk to birds); Men who had an exceptionally close connection to nature.

As for Ungoliant, I too had once thought that she was a Maia but after re-reading those lines I now think that she was one of the 'nature spirits' that already existed in Arda before the Valar entered it.

[Lalwendë]

Now, building on what Legate and Lommy have said, you have to pose the question, if Eru was The One and was Omnipotent, then he must also have created the darkness from which Ungoliant may or may not have stemmed? So in whatever conclusion, Ungoliant was created by Eru.

That of course makes you think of Ye Olde Chicken And Egg Question. Eru must have made himself. Aaargh, I feel about 14 again and wondering what all this stuff about God was and how he could possibly have made himself! Taoism...?

*shakes head*

Now, Illuvatar as Light and Ungoliant as Unlight - you only have to look at their names to see the poetic correspondence, Illuvatar is very similar to illuminate, no? But even laying that aside, we have the powerful idea of Eru as the Secret Fire which lies at the very heart of Arda. That to me is enough to forever link the character with Light and Life.

We still cannot rule out the chance that there are other existences than Arda, which may have been created by Eru. After all, not all the Ainur came down to Arda, and we have no concept of how many remained with him, nor do we know if he even needed any Ainur to build worlds. Eru could have created other existences outside the Ainur and the Music (that's a good idea, Legate!).

And now to this thorny matter:

Originally Posted by Legate

Yes, but as you see, I touched this matter in my post above. We have two possible points of view: one, all these books are a story written by Tolkien, the world is created by him. Second, all these books are simply a recounting of a story, Tolkien is not the creator, but he recounts something that happened elsewhere. In that case, there is no Tolkien above Eru, but Eru is the One, the One that was before everything else was in that "long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" about which Tolkien is giving us his report. You understand me? If we look from the "inside" point of view, we cannot say there was any Tolkien. The answer to what Ungoliant was from the first point of view is easy and creates no problems. The second one seems not as easy (though I still believe she was simply an Ainu ).

Now of course Tolkien was the creator of Eru as he wouldn't have existed if Tolkien had not dreamed him up and committed him to paper. But is that too simple? If you completely give yourself up to the story then Tolkien was not the creator, he was merely telling it. Yet can we do that? Can we as modern readers with critical minds ever truly think that this has a separate existence to Tolkien? I feel the Four Horsemen of Critical Theory coming over the horizon there so I'm not going to think on that one any more tonight...

[Gwathagor]

I'm convinced by the suggestion that Ungoliant was a sort of anti-Bombadil incarnate-darkness evil-nature-spirit-in-spider-form. She's clearly not a Maia.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I'm convinced by the suggestion that Ungoliant was a sort of anti-Bombadil incarnate-darkness evil-nature-spirit-in-spider-form. She's clearly not a Maia.

"Spirits" are termed ealar by Tolkien. There's no need for all the mumbo-jumbo, as 1) Bombadil has nothing to do with Ungoliante, 2) there's no reason to assume that Ungoliante was incarnate. You're right that she's "clearly not a Maia," but for the sole reason that she was not in the official service of any Vala; otherwise, her nature as a "spirit"--an eala--was identical to that of the Valar and Maiar.

[Gwathagor]

I see Ungoliant as an anti-Bombadil because like Bombadil, Ungoliant appears to not be a specifically created being, but rather an embodiment of forces of nature. Only she's evil.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I see Ungoliant as an anti-Bombadil because like Bombadil, Ungoliant appears to not be a specifically created being, but rather an embodiment of forces of nature. Only she's evil.

Why do Bombadil and Ungoliante appear not to be created? Iluvatar existed before all else and thus brought all else into being.

[Gwathagor]

As I see it, Ungoliant and Bombadil were created incidentally, as manifestations of natural forces.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Now, building on what Legate and Lommy have said, you have to pose the question, if Eru was The One and was Omnipotent, then he must also have created the darkness from which Ungoliant may or may not have stemmed?

Stemmed? You folks make her sound like a blossom from the Evil tree. "The darkness" was the empty space that "lies about Arda," like the darkness around our own Earth. There's absolutely no reason to make her into some peculiar manifestation of evil.

So in whatever conclusion, Ungoliant was created by Eru.

Yep. How is this even an observation worth making?

That of course makes you think of Ye Olde Chicken And Egg Question.

No it doesn't. How is this at all corollary?

Eru must have made himself.

Aaargh, I feel about 14 again and wondering what all this stuff about God was and how he could possibly have made himself! Taoism...?

Why must he have done so? Any discussion of the origin of things requires the acceptance of something prime, whether it's a singularity, empty space (which, as a multi-dimensional canvas, is manifestly more complex than nothing) or a creative consciousness. Why the illogical meanderings of a 14-year-old mind have any bearing on this discussion, I do not know.

We still cannot rule out the chance that there are other existences than Arda, which may have been created by Eru. After all, not all the Ainur came down to Arda, and we have no concept of how many remained with him, nor do we know if he even needed any Ainur to build worlds. Eru could have created other existences outside the Ainur and the Music (that's a good idea, Legate!).

Of course we can. We can rule out the chance because Tolkien never even implied it. We don't have to, though. You're welcome (naturally--you don't need my permission) to imagine all kinds of fan fiction, but it really has nothing to do with Ungoliante.

Now of course Tolkien was the creator of Eru as he wouldn't have existed if Tolkien had not dreamed him up and committed him to paper. But is that too simple? If you completely give yourself up to the story then Tolkien was not the creator, he was merely telling it. Yet can we do that? Can we as modern readers with critical minds ever truly think that this has a separate existence to Tolkien? I BLAH BLAH PRETENSION BLAH BLAH so I'm not going to think on that one any more tonight...

Obviously you can. You just proposed (above) that we seriously consider the possibility that Iluvatar had other creative projects from which Ungoliante might have emigrated, despite the fact that Tolkien never indicated that he did, nor even entertained the possibility. In doing this you have removed Tolkien from the creative role, leaving only Iluvatar. You attribute to Iluvatar the power to create without Tolkien's guidance.