What was Shelob, and more importantly, what was Ungoliant?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

An interesting rather Gnostic-Manichaean idea, but:

1 "First of all" Iluvatar made the Ainur, "who were with him before aught else was made"

2 In Tolkien's very monotheist worldview, there was nothing before Eru, and nothing which Eru did not create

3 Eru has no equal. By definition. Besides, would Eru have been driven off by a few Balrogs?

Tolkien's treatment of Melkor is characterized by a *heavy* emphasis that this is *not* a dualist universe: Melkor is constantly being reminded that he is a created being (which he hates, and which drives him mad). Ungoliant does seem to be some sort of darkness-elemental, and a deliberate enigma. Tolkien doesn't want us to know exactly what she was, and perhaps never worked it out for himself_ but then (as with Bombadil) he was aware that in the 'real' world there are always bits that don't seem to fit: total systematic consistency is a hallmark of the artificial.

Originally Posted by Legate

Whatever the case, I wanted to say that the "laws of the universe" do not seem to apply in the case of these characters or things (which, in fact, could even allow the "outside the One" possibility, but in the meaning that they don't have anything to do with the created universe itself and are "aliens" in the whole story, which could be applied very well in TB's case), but if we want to take Middle-Earth, resp. Arda, resp. the Void and everything around it as a consistent world (with inner consistence, and not a world from a story from the outside point of view), and we do not want to accept these characters as belonging to any of the known classes, we have to say, together with the Prof, that even in this world there are some mysteries and these are some of them. Which is not much of a help, definitely, but what can we do.

And there's the rub.

Tolkien deliberately leaves her origins a mystery. If she comes from Eru then he made her what she is. If she does not, then where does she come from? Your guess is as good as mine Whatever, it only deepens the mystery of the whole creation to have enigmas like Ungoliant and Tom wandering about. Tom is less difficult in that he is generally a good guy, Ungoliant is very difficult indeed as she's so shadowy, both literally and metaphorically.

Still, you cannot deny that there is something extremely powerful in the metaphorical contrast Tolkien sets up between Illuvatar/Light/Life and Ungoliant/Unlight/Death.

I don't have quite such a problem with accepting that there is the possibility that there is another existence besides the one Eru creates. We are told Eru is The One and is Omnipotent, and that is correct, but it might mean that he is Omnipotent within this creation. It does not mean there cannot be other creations, maybe created by Eru. Maybe not.

One thing you can say about characters such as Tom and Ungoliant is that there is someone above Eru. And that's Tolkien. He had the power to drop in these enigmatic characters, to create and destroy far more than Eru did. In answering the question "Well, who made Eru?" your answer is "Tolkien did". These enigmas are Authorial interventions made tangible. They certainly bring a large helping of irony into the work as their very existence calls into question the very cosmological structure Tolkien set up; he is the one who has the power to include or exclude them, they bring questions to his creation, but he still includes them. They also smell strongly of metafiction as they are stories within stories, characters which seem to exist outside this creation but which in reality can only be found within it...Tolkien the Postmodernist...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Still, you cannot deny that there is something extremely powerful in the metaphorical contrast Tolkien sets up between Illuvatar/Light/Life and Ungoliant/Unlight/Death.

Well, I must say this Unlight never made as large impact on me as it did on you, not sure whether it was because I already thought Ungoliant as Ainu or it was the other way around that it did not make large impact on me and therefore I had no problems with thinking about Ungoliant as about Ainu. Maybe it has also something to do with the fact that Ilúvatar is not that much of Light/Life for me, but Valar are Light for me (thinking of Varda now especially) and Morgoth is Darkness, in which case Ungoliant is Unlight, simply Un-Varda (vaguely speaking), and Ilúvatar is Death (more than anyone else) and also Life. So we have Ilúvatar Life/Death, Varda Light, Morgoth Darkness, Ungoliant Unlight. The last three seem as if they should have an "odd one out" among them, but seemingly they don't. Hm, so this is it.

Originally Posted by Lal

One thing you can say about characters such as Tom and Ungoliant is that there is someone above Eru. And that's Tolkien.

Yes, but as you see, I touched this matter in my post above. We have two possible points of view: one, all these books are a story written by Tolkien, the world is created by him. Second, all these books are simply a recounting of a story, Tolkien is not the creator, but he recounts something that happened elsewhere. In that case, there is no Tolkien above Eru, but Eru is the One, the One that was before everything else was in that "long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" about which Tolkien is giving us his report. You understand me? If we look from the "inside" point of view, we cannot say there was any Tolkien. The answer to what Ungoliant was from the first point of view is easy and creates no problems. The second one seems not as easy (though I still believe she was simply an Ainu ).

Originally Posted by Lal

I don't have quite such a problem with accepting that there is the possibility that there is another existence besides the one Eru creates. We are told Eru is The One and is Omnipotent, and that is correct, but it might mean that he is Omnipotent within this creation. It does not mean there cannot be other creations, maybe created by Eru. Maybe not.

Well yes, but in case all we read about is Eru's creation, then there can be nothing outside it. The first thing that ever "happened" in this universe is that there was Eru (I must say the more I think about this first sentence the more the contrast with the first verse of Genesis appears in front of me - such short sentences and both about something totally different). Okay, let's look at it word after word. Just the first sentence provides quite enough material:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.

There was Eru - no problem. There was someone called Eru. It is in no way different from the tales where we are told "there was Bilbo Baggins" or "there was a king and he had three daughters". Nevertheless,
the One - this is a thing that we cannot avoid. He was the One. There were no others, two, three, or seven, or whatever. Now Lal said that he might be One just in the terms of his creation and that there may be something outside his creation. I would call that quite a constrained move, but even then, we never hear anything about other creations or things that would interfere. That much is clear,
who in Arda is called Ilúvatar - he is called Ilúvatar, "all-father", in Arda - now this is an argumant that could go with what Lal said (that he is seen as all-father only in Arda, but maybe not elsewhere), but actually, this destroys the possibility to interpretate the words before "the One" as not having an universal legitimacy. Because if we take the words "who in Arda is called Ilúvatar" the way that he is all-father just from the view of the inhabitants of Arda, the words "the One" create a contrast, and we have: yes, there is someone who is called all-father in Arda, that is, he created all that is in Arda and from the point of view of its inhabitants he created everything. And what about outside Arda? Well outside Arda, he is THE ONE - that is, outside Arda, there is nothing besides him, and not just from the view of the Arda-inhabitants. The words "the One" do not have any "who in Arda is called the One" or "who in the Halls of Ilúvatar is called the One" with them. No, it is plain: he is the One, point.
and he made first the Ainur - now we hear what he made first, one can now start to think whether "first" is to be interpretated here as marking the object (he first made Ainur and then he made something else), or as emphasising the time (that there was nothing before he made Ainur). Whatever the case, this part (and then the holy ones part and what follows) does not concern our current topic that much, I believe, so let's move on;
and they were with him before aught else was made - definitely nothing else was made before. That actually means several things for us, like the fact that Ungoliant (or Tom), if they are not Ainur and if they are not outside Eru's creation, could not have been there earlier than the Ainur. Second, it is interesting whether (in case we allowed the possibility that there are other creations than Eru's) this could be interpretated the way that really nothing else, even things from other creations, were made before Eru made the Ainur. However, even this discovery would not have any relevance regarding the question whether there were such things outside Eru's creation. Nevertheless, mainly from the words "the One" and what follows and taking the context into account, I believe it is not relevant to assume that there were other things outside Eru's creation in the world from the inner point of view.

[Thinlómien]

I've read through your argument and neither of you manages to convince me. If you ask me, Lal is imposing too much importance on Ungoliant (considering how small a part she played in the actual legends) while Legate is seeking to label her as an Ainu and neither seems right to me.

So, there has to be some other explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have it. However, I got this intriguing idea that has totally no support from the books. Could Ungoliant have been born of the Music of Ainur? Of Melkor's discord, or of something more planned? Or of the Dark that followed the Music?

~*~

Actually, now that I was eyeing my Finnish copy of the Sil, the translation suggests a new answer. The English passage goes:

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda

and the Finnish translator has translated the word "to descend" in the sense "to be born, be a descendant of somebody" (like "a descendant of Kings") not as "to come down". What if the translator got it correct here? What if Ungoliant was (for some unknown reason) born of the darkness that surrounded Arda?

If Ilúvatar was there first and created everything, he created that darkness as well? So Ungoliant would be a creation of his (in a way) but not his child in the same sense as Ainur or the actual Children of Ilúvatar. Actually, my theory sounds too good at this point. Please show me the loophole(s).


PS. Sorry for the messy structure and flip-floppiness of this post, but I often write and think the same time, not think first and write then. (Ask anyone who's played ww with me. ) I figured editing it all into a consistent post would be too much trouble, so I left it as it stands.

[Elmo]

I thought Tolkien mentioned something like, the tree's fate was woven into all the tales of the Elder Days so she was quite important.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well it does not sound that bad, Lommy, and if I had to accept that Ungoliant is not an Ainu but had to find a definite answer to what she is in Eru's creation, I could go along similar lines as you do. So what if she is not outside Eru's creation, but outside the Music? That would fit very well with the idea of un-Light, as opposite to what goes through the Music. We know Eru placed his own devices inside the Music, yet no one said he could not have done? made? anything else. That could go somehow even with your idea of "being born from the Darkness", however we have to consider one thing that outside the Music (and Arda, subsequently) there was only the Void, which is not even Darkness, not even Un-Light, but it is nothing.

Taking into account that the Ainur were definitely the first thing to be created by Eru, Ungoliant, whatever she was, if she was not one of them, had to be created later. As for Melkor creating her in the Music, it is possible (maybe she in the Music she would have been some attempt to destroy the Light that went wrong and turned away even from him, however in that case again I would see it more logical that she was an Ainu), but the idea of her being something else outside the Music seems more plausible to me, if I had to choose.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Lommy, that is an intriguing idea! Perhaps those of us who are native English speakers missed the double possibilities of the word "to descend from"! It is even possible that Tolkien, with his wonderful sense of language, intended a double meaning there - both to be born from and to come down. At any rate the thought adds a fascinating facet to the discussion!

[obloquy]

I don't get what's so difficult and intriguing about Ungoliante and Tom Bombadil. How is there any necessity for an explanation outside of what we know for sure?

If it is this

The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda

that is causing problems, just remember that 1) the Atani had beliefs about their own origins that conflicted with other accounts, and possibly with actuality, so the fact that "some have said" something means very little, really; and 2) "the darkness that lies about Arda" is not outside of creation. This origin myth implies only that she entered Arda without receiving an official assignment from Iluvatar; therefore she was neither Vala nor Maia, and thus also not an Ainu. This does not mean that she was entirely unique in nature or even in circumstance, however.

As for Tom Bombadil, I see no reason for him to be anything more than a mysterious character within Tolkien's cosmos. Apart from Tolkien revealing his real-world origins (which necessitates no special conditions for his presence in M-e--after all, Bilbo could have been based on Tolkien's uncle), why is he such an anomaly? What makes his nature so irreconcilable with the rest of Middle-earth?

Now, Beorn I really have a problem with.

[zxcvbn]

What's the problem? Beorn was a Man. Tolkien said so and that's it. Yes, he was a shapeshifter, so you can put him in the same category as the Druedain and the Dale-men(who could talk to birds); Men who had an exceptionally close connection to nature.

As for Ungoliant, I too had once thought that she was a Maia but after re-reading those lines I now think that she was one of the 'nature spirits' that already existed in Arda before the Valar entered it.

[Lalwendë]

Now, building on what Legate and Lommy have said, you have to pose the question, if Eru was The One and was Omnipotent, then he must also have created the darkness from which Ungoliant may or may not have stemmed? So in whatever conclusion, Ungoliant was created by Eru.

That of course makes you think of Ye Olde Chicken And Egg Question. Eru must have made himself. Aaargh, I feel about 14 again and wondering what all this stuff about God was and how he could possibly have made himself! Taoism...?

*shakes head*

Now, Illuvatar as Light and Ungoliant as Unlight - you only have to look at their names to see the poetic correspondence, Illuvatar is very similar to illuminate, no? But even laying that aside, we have the powerful idea of Eru as the Secret Fire which lies at the very heart of Arda. That to me is enough to forever link the character with Light and Life.

We still cannot rule out the chance that there are other existences than Arda, which may have been created by Eru. After all, not all the Ainur came down to Arda, and we have no concept of how many remained with him, nor do we know if he even needed any Ainur to build worlds. Eru could have created other existences outside the Ainur and the Music (that's a good idea, Legate!).

And now to this thorny matter:

Originally Posted by Legate

Yes, but as you see, I touched this matter in my post above. We have two possible points of view: one, all these books are a story written by Tolkien, the world is created by him. Second, all these books are simply a recounting of a story, Tolkien is not the creator, but he recounts something that happened elsewhere. In that case, there is no Tolkien above Eru, but Eru is the One, the One that was before everything else was in that "long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" about which Tolkien is giving us his report. You understand me? If we look from the "inside" point of view, we cannot say there was any Tolkien. The answer to what Ungoliant was from the first point of view is easy and creates no problems. The second one seems not as easy (though I still believe she was simply an Ainu ).

Now of course Tolkien was the creator of Eru as he wouldn't have existed if Tolkien had not dreamed him up and committed him to paper. But is that too simple? If you completely give yourself up to the story then Tolkien was not the creator, he was merely telling it. Yet can we do that? Can we as modern readers with critical minds ever truly think that this has a separate existence to Tolkien? I feel the Four Horsemen of Critical Theory coming over the horizon there so I'm not going to think on that one any more tonight...