HOB - Chapters into Scenes Weekly

[Sauron the White]

"What comes after the prologue and before the first dwarf arrives?"

Let us discuss.

[Folwren]

Excellent. I'll be here much later in the afternoon to discuss my thoughts.

[Sauron the White]

Lets consider the first Shire scenes with Gandalf and Bilbo. In the book there are two different scenes. First, Gandalf shows up and we have the wonderful exchange between the two of them with "good mornings" and Bilbo remembering who Gandalf is. Gandalf departs leaving the message scrawled upon the door of Bag-end. Then Gandalf returns as promised and the Dwarves show up in dribs and drabs until the place is filled up. Both are great scenes.

Question: In the film, should these be two individual scenes divided by a nights intervention, or should they be placed into one scene without the passage of time?

We could hear Gandalf explaining about the message on the door rather than seeing him doing it. This would compact things and get rid of two rather similar looking scenes - at least until the Dwarves arrival.

[Quempel]

I think there should be some passage of time. Once Bilbo gets comfortable with one or two dwarves another one or two show up. So he will be setting out tea and various goodies to eat, sits down and as soon as he sits down there's a knock at the door. Have him fussing much the way he was in beginning of FoTR, except instead of hiding he is making teas and setting out cookies and becoming bewildered by it all. I think a small side quip would be him saying something about he has no idea how many dwarves he can fit into Bag End, something where the sheer terror of being an unprepared host would be played upon. All most like the mad-hatter in Alice.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Question: In the film, should these be two individual scenes divided by a nights intervention, or should they be placed into one scene without the passage of time?

You remember that Bilbo invited Gandalf to tea in the book. And then as soon as he got inside, he wondered to himself, "Why on earth did I invite him to tea?" I wonder if this might be a good opportunity to make the time change. Bilbo runs into his door, shuts it, and then as he's pattering down the hall, mutters that line half aloud and scarcely has he quit saying it than we cut to a new scene of Bilbo at the tea table preparing to sit down. Before he can, he hears the knock of the first dwarf...

Are we permitted to write what we think might be nice for the dailogue?

[Sauron the White]

That is a very good idea Folwren. It would work quite well and we avoid two back to back scenes in the exact same place with much the same characters but broken over two days.

And by all means dialogue is fine here. I would love to see what you come up with.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Has some thought been given to the above discussed prologue
including a young Thorin seing the dragon attack while outside
Erebor, and then before "An Unexpected Party" an older Thorin's
interaction with Gandalf with the dwarf seeking Gandalf's help (as in
Unfinished Tales, but perhaps at the Prancing Pony- for less
confusion for movie only people), then going to Gandalf/Bilbo?

[Sauron the White]

What songs would you put in or keep out from the Dwarves at Bag-end?

[Nazgûl-king]

A lot in this scene depends on whether or not they are keeping with the tone of the book or making it more mature. If they go for the more mature idea, then I doubt the trolls will talk much if at all, or that there will be the purse. I think the trolls will talk a little bit though, since in one scene in the Fellowship film when Bilbo is telling the story of this adventure to a bunch of hobbit children he mentions them arguing over them. If they decide to keep the look they had for the stone trolls, then I think we have an idea of what the trolls and the location will look like.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

It mat have been Shippey who suggested a gradually
increasingly serious threat by the dangers posed to
Thorin & Co. in TH. If that's the case then it could make
sense to make the troll episode fairly lighthearted,
although I must confess I've been a bit discordant to
hear their cockney accents (in light of later LOTR).

Btw, I've been listening to a series of Tolkien based
lecture tapes about fantasy literature I got at Barnes
and Noble Bookstores where the lecturer argues for
the trolls speech being a deliberate class separation
by Tolkien.

[Thenamir]

Do forgive me as well for being late to this discussion, especially as I was one of the first posters to express some interest in carrying it on.

There is merit to all of the proposed prologue/openings, but there is a part of the Tolkien fan and purist in me that wants to see the opening moments look something like this:

After the last of the interminable trailers for upcoming features, and the obligatory New Line logo, the screen fades to black for a few moments. Quietly, almost imperceptibly (i.e. just louder than the crunching popcorn from the moviegoer next to you), the score begins -- soft strings play a theme not unlike the Shire theme from FOTR but slower, more muted, as if not quite awake yet, as we see the "New Line Cinema presents" and the "A Wingnut Films Production", then the screen fades up.

The view is from aloft, flying (less like a plane, more like a hot-air balloon) over a lush green countryside in the twilight before sunrise. As we drift along, seeing the mist hanging low in the valleys, the music and the light rise in tandem and we begin to descend and zoom in on a small village town. Now, purposefully, you can see that we are coming in from a great distance to a particular door -- a round door in the side of a hill. And as the music reaches a peak-point, the sunlight breaks over the hill, illumining the hill and the door, and you hear the voice of Ian Holm (or whoever plays Bilbo) speak aloud,

"In a hole in the ground...there lived a Hobbit."

Cue the title card, pan around to the window, where you see Bilbo taking a cup of tea to his desk, a large red book open to the first words of "There and Back Again"

Finish the rest of the opening credits however you want, but you MUST have those famous words!

[Nazgûl-king]

Are we still doing this? If so what part are we one now?

[Olórin the White]

no idea if this is still has interest in being pursued as a topic, but I figured I'd add my two cents. Most people seem to be a for an opening action sequence and/or background history (like FotR), however I disagree for several reasons.
A) I doubt PJ and del Toro will want to follow the same pattern they did for FotR, simply because every filmmaker wants to prove that he can do something fresh, and not fall back on a formula that worked in the past. (However, I will admit that PJ did love his use of either flashback or prologue type beginning to each LotR, so if they are trying to make The Hobbit fit that, perhaps they would indeed do something similar. It is hard to judge.)
B) From a character standpoint, this story is about Bilbo Baggins, he is 'the hobbit' afterall, and his sudden involvement in the events of the Dwarves is very bewildering and unexpected to him (hence 'the unexpected party). He has simply lived his quiet life in the Shire, and I believe that is how we should be introduced to the tone of the movie...the story of 'the Hobbit is told largely through his eyes, and therefore I sense that the movie should also be told through his eyes as well.
To add to that, we as the audience will understand his character arc better because we have followed a similar learning curve in terms of information discovered along the way.
Now, you might argue the same about Frodo and LotR, and that the book starts out largely dealing with the peace and quiet of the Shire, but there is just such an immense amount of history that needed to be set up (which isn't there in the Hobbit to nearly the same extent), and really, the 'lord' of the rings was Sauron, therefore he needed to be introduced at the outset.

Therefore, I think the film should start with Bilbo peacefully enjoying life in the Shire. I liked the idea someone had for the opening of flying in over the shire, and coming around and into Bag End where Bilbo is beginning to pen 'there and back again'. However, that was already shown at the beginning of FotR:EE, so in terms of film continuity that unfortunately wouldn't work. (unless they use that same footage and use it as a recurring theme of Bilbo writing it down and occassionally narrating the story...I've heard rumor that Ian Holm might have a role as a narrator in 'The Hobbit'?) That could be interesting. It is just difficult because what Bilbo is writing in the EE is really the prologue to LotR (Concerning Hobbits), rather than the opening to The Hobbit.
What I would love to see actually is the camera flying over a map of Middle Earth, revealing Mirkwood and the Lonely Mountain and other important landmarks we will see in the movie, with the voice of Bilbo in the background. Cue title card as the camera pans up to reveal that the map was actually in Bag End (very much out of FotR:EE) and have Bilbo beginning to write out The Hobbit, which of course naturally leads us to the opening scenes of Gandalf and the dwarves and the Unexpected Party).

[Sauron the White]

Nazgul King - There was never really much enthusiasm here for the project.
I went over to thehobbitblog.com and started a thread there doing the same thing and there are over 1,900 posts in six months. We have finished with HOBBIT and are laying out the bones of the second film. Try it and see what you think.