The Greatest of the Eldar

[Galin]

According to The Lord of the Rings the East-elves were not Eldar however, nor their languages considered Eldarin. Thus most of the folk of Mirkwood and Lórien were not considered Eldar.

Still Thranduil was Eldarin, being Sindarin as noted.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Cirdan wasn't an elf to my knowledge... I thought that Elves had nicely un- bearded faces and Cirdan had a beard.... Maybe I'm just strange...

[obloquy]

Cirdan was a first-generation Elda.

First of all, what is greatness?
If you say potency of spirit, then I think Feanor had a very potent spirit. I seem to recall that when he died it turned his body to ash (obviously related to his name "fiery spirit")

He did have a potent spirit, and he was one of the three greatest Eldar.

WHy stick to only Eldar?
I mean there were some great elves that were not eldar.

I'd be surprised if you could name some great Avari. Still, even if you can, they weren't as great as the Eldar.

What about wisdom?

The whole point of the original post is that Tolkien provided an unequivocal and (this part seems the hardest to grasp) unqualified answer to the question. It's not about what they were great at: just as Sauron is unquestionably Morgoth's greatest servant, Luthien is unquestionably the greatest of the Eldar, followed by Feanor and Galadriel--relative wisdom, might in battle, skill in crafts, etc. notwithstanding.

How does Luthien qualify to be Eldar?
Isn't it a bit strange that a half-elf can wualify as eldar? She is half divine, and her father only becomes Eldar through strange circumstances. Elu Thingol (or ELwe Singollo) is also a SIndar elf, remember that. And she is half MAiar. Anyone achieving demi-godliness is great.

Firstly, children of the Eldar are Eldar by birth. Otherwise Elwe and Cirdan would be the only ones mentioned in this thread who actually qualify as Eldar. Secondly, the first post in this thread contains direct quotations from Tolkien himself, so it's not a matter of opinion or debate. Also, I'm curious: why would you say that Elwe is an Elda only because of "strange circumstances"?

BUt Luthien is not great because of being herself, or an eldar, neither is she geat for anything but her birth. She did not achieve greatness she just is great.
HOw can that be greatness. JUst because your mother is a goddess it shouldn't make you great.

Have you even read the Silmarillion?

Greatesss depends on what you mean: It could be potency of spirit, nobility of birth, divinity levels, beauty,strebght, warrior skill, crafting, wisdom, cunning, self-sacrifice, etc. Luthien only fits one of these things. Some Eldar fit many more. (I will discuss this in more detail, but it is late here)

No, it doesn't. If it did, Tolkien would have qualified his declaration of greatness each time he made it. To Tolkien, it meant inner power--the metaphysical magnitude of a person. There's no need to discuss it more, because this is an open-and-shut case. If someone asks "Who is the greatest Elf?" the answer is, indubitably, Luthien Tinuviel. Why? Because Tolkien said so.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Well, if it's what the Professor said, then that is true. Because he essentially is the creator of Middle-earth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Galin,

Without getting into a 'my canon is better than your canon' fight, post-LR Tolkien definitely included the 'sylvan' Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien among the Eldar, coining the term Nandor for them and making them cousins of the Laiquendi of Ossiriand. Under that understanding, the "East-elves" are somewhere, well... farther East.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Galin, Without getting into a 'my canon is better than your canon' fight, ...'

In which battle The Lord of the Rings is mighty strong but there is another approach in any case.

'... post-LR Tolkien definitely included the 'sylvan' Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien among the Eldar, coining the term Nandor for them and making them cousins of the Laiquendi of Ossiriand. Under that understanding, the "East-elves" are somewhere, well... farther East.'

Not necessarily. The Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lórien can still be East-elves and not Eldar when later (but 'unpublished') texts are considered.

'The Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri, and so remoter kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the Teleri of Valinor.' (...) 'The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari; but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan, and they welcomed those of the Noldor and especially the Sindar who did not pass over the Sea but migrated eastward [i.e. at the beginning of the Second Age].' Unfinished Tales

The Tawarwaith were in origin Teleri, hardly to be distinguished from Avari (which thus distinguishes them actually), and were in origin Eldar.

'Nandor. This name must have been made at the time, in the latter days of the March, when certain groups of the Teleri gave up the March; and it was especially applied to the large following of Lenwe who refused to cross the Hithaeglir. The name was often interpreted as 'Those who go back'; but in fact none of the Nandor appear to have returned, or to have joined the Avari. Many remained and settled in lands that they had reached, especially beside the River Anduin; some turned aside and wandered southwards'. Q&E

So, Mirkwood and Lórien: mostly 'East-elves' (The Lord of the Rings). The East-elves were probably a mix of Nandor (Eldar 'in origin') and Avari. The term Eldar becomes narrowed again to basically West-elves (it had been narrowed already in the internal history). This is not only a possible explanation (in my opinion), using both The Lord of the Rings and unpublished texts, but I note an earlier situation with respect to the Danas revealed in The History of Middle-Earth:

'In any case, the Danas are sufficiently characterised as Elves of the Great March who abandoned it early on but who still felt a desire for the West (...) Their position is anomalous, and might equally well be classified either as Eldarin or as not Eldarin.'

Christopher Tolkien, commentary The Lhammas HME V

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In QS, contemporary with the Lhammas, Tolkien had *all* the Danians eventually go on to Beleriand, without leaving any kin behind; and (consonant with the Lhammas quote) used the term Pereldar 'half-Eldar' for them. (Thus of course when the Lorien chapters were written the Elves of Lorien were seen as Avari save for Galadriel herself. In this connection Imrazor+Mithrellas isn't counted in the Appendices as a Man-Elda marriage. But under the later conception this can be regarded as a needed correction overlooked, like 'House of Finrod.'


In 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' T says that Galadriel in Eregion had

come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lorinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains. This was peopled by those Elves who forsook the Great Journey of the Eldar from Cuivienen and settled in the woods of the Vales of Anduin.... Many Sindar and Noldor came to live among them, and their 'Sindarizing' under the impact of Beleriandic culture began

No suggestion of Avari being present in the mix.

At any rate, for the purposes of this discussion, it's enough to observe that no named Avar ever appears, so it's silly to look among them for a 'great' Elf.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Have you even read the Silmarillion?

Yes, I have, and though I must admit that Kuthien did some pretty amazing things, I think Cirdan beats her in that area. (I would give an example, but I haven't got much time now, maybe later)

Originally Posted by obloquy

Also, I'm curious: why would you say that Elwe is an Elda only because of "strange circumstances"?

Because though he did "behold the light" he is also of the Sindar (If Sindar does not count as Eldar). He is both an Elda and a Sinda. He refused to go to Valinor, so he is of the Úmanyar as well (I think, correct me if I am wrong, but I know he is a Sinda)

[Lalaith]

I'm so glad this thread has been bumped up...the first page always made me laugh a lot. I just wish the graph was still visible.

[Galin]

The Sindar are Eldar -- they were part of the Great March and reached Beleriand.

Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand.

List of Names , The Children of Húrin

'... and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only).' (RotK, Appendix F)

That's the short (fairly recent) version from Christopher Tolkien. And JRRT on Eldar according to The Lord of the Rings.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It's funny: this thread was never meant to receive posts. It's main function was to stand as a reference for a particular fact -- that of Luthien being the greatest of the Eldar. obloquy explicitly stated that he intended to stop the pointless debates about which Elf was the greatest. I remember reading the thread when it was created and thinking 'How could anyone argue with this?'