Astronomy and astrology in Middle-Earth?

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That's true. But what I wanted to say was that it had nothing to do with astrology. It was a message from the Valar, and it did not have anything to do with astrology like that some astrologues in M-E would sit down and say "Eärendil rises in the west and Jupiter is in opposition so that means Morgoth will be overthrown". The question posed was about astrology (and astronomy) and this is not astrology in the way the word is understood here - this was reaction to a special event that happened only once.




Yup, but the question stands like this: can we afford to make such bold assumptions? That was the original question. Frodo simply saw a star and he did not like it, point. I am also inclined to believe it was Mars, but that's another matter. But nothing implies that seeing a red star was taken by the Middle-Eartheans as a sign of war, like the HP centaurs do. The question is not whether centaurs would say that to Frodo, but whether Elves would say that to Frodo.

I wasn't trying to suggest that any of the things I mentioned were astrology in the sense that you seem to be using.
Short point - From what I have read (and subject to correction) there doesn't seem to be clear evidence of astrology in Middle earth.

[Gwathagor]

Astrology and astronomy aren't SO different...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morwen

I wasn't trying to suggest that any of the things I mentioned were astrology in the sense that you seem to be using.
Short point - From what I have read (and subject to correction) there doesn't seem to be clear evidence of astrology in Middle earth.

Oh yeah, then - okay. Only since the point was astrology before, I thought you had that in mind (also with all the centaurs things). All right then.

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Astrology and astronomy aren't SO different...

Now probably quite a lot of astronomers - and astrologues maybe as well - would look at you as on a poor uninformed person (in the better case) if you said such a thing in their sight. The origins of both lie in the ancient times and in the same roots, and they were both considered "sciencies" (or so we would say now) at these times; this is also what explains the controversial name of astrology (with the ending -logy we are more used to real "sciencies" like biology and so on, so in fact astronomy should be rather named astrology; yet, in these past times astronomy indeed concerned herself more with naming, catalogizing, observing stellar objects while astrology made "scientifical" conclusions based on the movements of the skies). Yet, and that remains till today, astrology specializes itself on horoscopes and such things, while astronomy is all that has something to do with exploring the space, catalogizing the stars and other object, explaining their movements, "mapping" them - how distant they are, how luminous they are, what is the prognosis of the lifespan of the stars etc. Astrology, as far as I know, does not concern itself with how distant this and this star is or what the surface of this and this planet is like, but only where this planet was when you were born and similar things.

[The Might]

Aren't we far too off topic here?

The question was if they exist in M-e not what they are and I think we have our answer.
Unless, someone has proof that they did make predictions by looking at the stars.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

The question was if they exist in M-e not what they are and I think we have our answer.
Unless, someone has proof that they did make predictions by looking at the stars.

And that is what I am waiting for - if we can find any proof (or I hoped that we could find at least "no" from the Prof in the Letters or something). Or something closer about astronomy. I wouldn't have started the thread in the first place, because I had my own opinion about the matter, yet I wanted to learn if there is anything else.

[Gwathagor]

Well...I think my CRAZY idea that astrology and astronomy are secretly the same thing is relevant to the question, because if I am right, then our question is wrong and we are setting up a false dichotomy.

If we are understanding astrology to mean newspaper horoscopes and petty fortune-telling, then I agree, it's nothing like astronomy. And yet, both things are produced from the same impulse, and have essentially the same purpose. This is more obvious if you are operating in a classical or medieval cosmology (which is the worldview within which Middle-earth exists). Until the rise of modernity, astrology was NOT horoscopes and crystal balls. It was based on the sensible notion that God's sovereign will and reason were reflected in his creation. By observing the movements of the heavenly bodies, a careful, scientifically-minded astrologer could attain a superior knowledge of the way the universe works, and what's going on in it. This is science. Astronomers, until the modern era, WERE astrologers: Ptolemy, the Magi, Pythagoras, Galileo (seriously); and our "astronomy vs. astrology" question is indicative of the same materialism and rationalism that likes to make Galileo a martyr for science who was locked up by the superstitious Church for refusing to compromise his professional, scientific integrity.

So, my point is that in Middle-earth (being a land firmly grounded in a medieval worldview) wise men who studied the stars could be safely called either astrologers or astronomers with equal accuracy.

I apologize, I think I may have just ranted.

[The Might]

Ok, ok, interesting information there, I agree.

But, and this is the crucial point, where is your proof?
You can surely show me some documents that clearly show Galileo was an astrologer as well and I will obviously believe you.
But, what documents can you show me to make me believe Meneldur or anyone else in M-e was an astrologer?
If you can, then awesome!

But I personally doubt there are any. And as there aren't any I see no reason to believe there were astrologers.
I can well imagine that say, Southrons saw some new stars in the sky and said, "Oh, now we will have good crops!". But does Tolkien ever mention it? No.
Which brings me to my earlier point: astrology in M-e is as far as we know not existant, however possible and also plausible.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

If we are understanding astrology to mean newspaper horoscopes and petty fortune-telling, then I agree, it's nothing like astronomy. And yet, both things are produced from the same impulse, and have essentially the same purpose. This is more obvious if you are operating in a classical or medieval cosmology (which is the worldview within which Middle-earth exists). Until the rise of modernity, astrology was NOT horoscopes and crystal balls. It was based on the sensible notion that God's sovereign will and reason were reflected in his creation. By observing the movements of the heavenly bodies, a careful, scientifically-minded astrologer could attain a superior knowledge of the way the universe works, and what's going on in it. This is science. Astronomers, until the modern era, WERE astrologers: Ptolemy, the Magi, Pythagoras, Galileo (seriously); and our "astronomy vs. astrology" question is indicative of the same materialism and rationalism that likes to make Galileo a martyr for science who was locked up by the superstitious Church for refusing to compromise his professional, scientific integrity.

So, my point is that in Middle-earth (being a land firmly grounded in a medieval worldview) wise men who studied the stars could be safely called either astrologers or astronomers with equal accuracy.

If you read my post, you must know from there that I am aware of this. However, what I think, and in fact, what is the main purpose of this thread to find out, is, whether M-E REALLY saw stars as some kind of things that contain ANY information. Astronomy in M-E: yes, definitely. The people were looking at the skies, naming objects, this one is Nénar and this is Borgil, and the question posed at the very beginning of this thread is whether they also did other things (like looking what trajectory this and this stellar object follows); we agreed upon something. But I was looking for a proof whether astrology was in M-E as well, and that, if you read my posts above, concerns astrology in all that it means. My question was, DID the people in M-E really think this antic and medieval way as you say it? Did they think something about Eru's creation can be deciphered from the stars? "It was based on the sensible notion that God's sovereign will and reason were reflected in his creation," you say, yes, but was this "sensible notion" also in M-E? That is the question and surely you must have noticed I am aware of the fact astrology is not just horoscopes (don't know where you took crystal balls), if you read my posts (at least the opening one).