Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
|
View Poll Results: Do balrogs have wings? | |||
Yes | 114 | 58.16% | |
No | 82 | 41.84% | |
Voters: 196. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
04-23-2007, 09:01 AM | #401 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,994
|
Obviously what is needed is a full linguistic compilation of all of Tolkien's uses of the word "fly". We need to see his pattern of collocation, the cognates he uses, his contexts, etc etc.
For now, here's this from CoH, a somewhat new source from which to extract more chapter and verse: Quote:
|
|
04-23-2007, 10:03 AM | #402 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
Quote:
It's good that he didn't live to see Earendil take to the sky . . . |
|
04-23-2007, 10:17 AM | #403 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Home. Where rolling green hills and clear rivers are practically my backyard.
Posts: 595
|
Quote:
I would also like to clarify something I said a few post ago. Quote:
--Fin--
__________________
One (1) book of rules and traffic regulations, which may not be bent or broken. ~ The Phantom Tollbooth |
||
04-23-2007, 02:00 PM | #404 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,455
|
Not actually that bovvered..
Quote:
I always had the impression that the Balrog had wings but I also had the impression that elves didn't have pointy ears and that the hobbits foot hair was on the soles... the films made me reread more carefully and corrected me of those latter two misapprehensions. This thread made me reread from my initial vote of "yes" and while the "like two vast wings" made me reconsider, I still think the jury is out. The text is ambiguous in my opinion, and I think there is reasonable doubt as to the whether Durin's bane had wings. In the quote, yes the shadow stretches out "like two vast wings". That is clearly a simile and not debatable in itself. However the presence of shadow wings and actual wings are not mutually exclusive... and if we are going to be so literal, I might point out that a shadow is created by a physical object preventing light from falling in a place ..... what might cast a shadow like big wings ... well wings perhaps . Taken in isolation, the second quote seems to refer to actual wings. It is only by reference to the other that one might think that these are metaphorical not literal wings. So for me even on the text alone there is scope for doubt. However, Balrogs are spirits of fire. The description is rather like that of Gandalf in " a long expected party" when he threatens to uncloak:"He seemed to grow tall and menacing; his shadow filled the little room" , and also of Galadriel when she is offered the ring. There are many instances of powerful beings - especially those whose fea is dominant over their hroa - Istari, ancient and reborn eldar, - seeming other than they are when they are roused. A balrog must have some physical form but I don't see why it should be fixed. Certainly if they are winged, I would think they are good for gliding more than gaining height - they seem to fall too much for that. They may be like dragons - some winged some not... but for me the bottom line is that it IS ambiguous and I don't actually care that much - I am still traumatised by the hobbits hairy ankles and bearded baby dwarves but I don't lose sleep over this one. There are so many wore interesting things to talk about and I shall perhaps find a few to start threads on but this is like flogging Snowmane after his encounter with the fell beast ...
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace Last edited by Mithalwen; 05-21-2007 at 05:40 AM. Reason: typos |
|
05-21-2007, 05:33 AM | #405 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
|
I've always known that winged balrogs are no good and recent experiences have enstrengthened the belief...
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
|
01-03-2008, 09:02 PM | #406 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 'Round the corner, down the well, passed the Balrog, straight to HELL!
Posts: 77
|
Forgive me if this has already been presented, but I recently found this little bit of information in the RotK appendix A.
"Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth." Whether this is like Gandalf's use of the word meaning to flee or retreat, or if it truly does mean to fly, I do not know.
__________________
My time is at an end, for I have walked from Valinor to the Far-east where men have not gone for millennia. Demons have fallen before me. And now... I must rest... |
01-04-2008, 12:23 PM | #407 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: May 2002
Location: South Wales
Posts: 49
|
The Balrog and Wings.
Ok, I know that every possible quote has been offered and no doubt 'done to death' in this thread. I have debated in more than one of these . I give now only my views on the matter. When I first read the LotR and stood with the Fellowship at the chasm of Khazad-dûm, the impression that I got of the Balrog was of a large, Man-shaped, demonic being without wings. Nothing in the writing showed me a creature with 'Wings'. When I first saw a debate on wings for a Balrog I could not understand why anybody thought the Balrog had any. So I did some thinking, perhaps I was wrong and re-read the books (again). I still see a very large creature (perhaps as much as 14ft tall) surrounded by a 'cloak-like' shadow that it could extend at will, similar to the darkness that surrounded Ungoliant though not as thick. Further reading and thought found no definite case of a Balrog travelling in the manner of birds in flight. They seemed at all times to be 'Ground Troops'. So I asked myself "Why would any creature that could choose its own form saddle itself with ungainly great appendages that have no real purpose?" This is what I came up with. The Only creditable reasons given for wings are a) To increase its apparent size to intimidate. b) To Fly or Glide. a) This is a pointless reason as the Balrog is intimidating enough due to the fear that goes before it and the fact that to increase its apparent size to look more terrible it has the Shadow which it can spread. b) There is at no point in the writings any evidence that the Balrog could fly or even Glide. Indeed the best time for either of these actions would have been during the battle above Gondolin where there was no restriction due to space and every reason to use wings due to the height at which this battle took place. Yet even before the fight between Glorfindel and the Balrog took place we find this :- Quote:
Rather than flying or gliding to get past Glorfindel's men it did so by "Leaping" A creature capable of gliding would no doubt have "Leaped Up" from where it was but then would have glided from there to the front of the line. In the absence of any definite evidence in favour of flight, to me Occam's razor amputates the wings.
__________________
If life was just a rehearsal, Would the show be Cancled. Greetings and Felicitations from the Lord of Balrogs! |
|
01-04-2008, 12:43 PM | #408 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,317
|
Tolkien also tells us that before the appearance of the Winged Dragons in the War of Wrath, Morgoth had never before essayed to bring war to the upper airs. This is related to the observation that at Gondolin the Balrogs needed the dragon-tanks to surmount the city walls- hardly necessary for flying creatures!
Tolkien uses 'fly' so often and so regularly in its sense of 'flee, run away,' dozens and dozens of times, that no significance at all can be attached to its use in connection to Balrogs. Besides, the leading cause of death among Balrogs (100% of known cases) is plummeting.
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
01-04-2008, 12:49 PM | #409 |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Posts: 111
|
If nothing else, is it not true that Gandalf the Grey's final words should lay this debate to rest?: "It flies, you fools!"
jk
__________________
www.scottchristiancarr.com They passed slowly, and the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes. |
01-04-2008, 12:50 PM | #410 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: May 2002
Location: South Wales
Posts: 49
|
Although, to be fair, Gothmog's plummet was very short (and wet), and no doubt having the spike of Ecthelion's helm stuck in his guts probably did not help
__________________
If life was just a rehearsal, Would the show be Cancled. Greetings and Felicitations from the Lord of Balrogs! |
01-04-2008, 12:58 PM | #411 | |
Mighty Quill
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Walking off to look for America
Posts: 2,230
|
Quote:
anyway, Balrogs have shadows that look like wings I am pretty sure!
__________________
The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.
|
|
01-04-2008, 01:34 PM | #412 |
Shade with a Blade
|
Maybe they were vestigial...wings made of shadow couldn't have been too useful, while they certainly would been imposing/ridiculously trendy.
__________________
Stories and songs. |
01-04-2008, 05:37 PM | #413 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 'Round the corner, down the well, passed the Balrog, straight to HELL!
Posts: 77
|
Really now, are we doomed to this forever?
Ugh! The person who started this thread said that this would potentially settle the matter, and yet here we all are, still bickering over the same usages of words and phrases, getting nowhere with the topic. My hopes for this matter to ever be laid to rest are dead (unlike the topic) and I hope that all of you will realize that we may never know.
__________________
My time is at an end, for I have walked from Valinor to the Far-east where men have not gone for millennia. Demons have fallen before me. And now... I must rest... |
01-04-2008, 06:19 PM | #414 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: May 2002
Location: South Wales
Posts: 49
|
Quote:
Some (like me) will know that Balrogs do Not have Wings! Some will know that Balrogs Do have Wings! In this, each reader puts their own Demon into the shadowy area marked out by Tolkien.
__________________
If life was just a rehearsal, Would the show be Cancled. Greetings and Felicitations from the Lord of Balrogs! |
|
01-04-2008, 08:03 PM | #415 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 'Round the corner, down the well, passed the Balrog, straight to HELL!
Posts: 77
|
Finally! Someone finally gets it!
__________________
My time is at an end, for I have walked from Valinor to the Far-east where men have not gone for millennia. Demons have fallen before me. And now... I must rest... |
01-05-2008, 11:34 AM | #416 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Quote:
|
|
01-05-2008, 11:40 AM | #417 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Home. Where rolling green hills and clear rivers are practically my backyard.
Posts: 595
|
Yes indeed, but it always pops back up. Not all threads do that.
__________________
One (1) book of rules and traffic regulations, which may not be bent or broken. ~ The Phantom Tollbooth |
01-05-2008, 02:43 PM | #418 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
The point is that the nerd whining about the issue never being put to rest is the one who resurrected it after 7 months of inactivity to post a quotation that first entered this particular discussion back on page 2.
|
01-05-2008, 03:51 PM | #419 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Facing the world's troubles with Christ's hope!
Posts: 1,635
|
Why are there threads all over the Down's dedicated to the subject of Balrog's wings? Isn't it common sense that Balrogs of wings?
__________________
I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men! ~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow |
01-05-2008, 05:14 PM | #420 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: May 2002
Location: South Wales
Posts: 49
|
Quote:
However, Common sense is an oxymoron. Sense in not at all common.
__________________
If life was just a rehearsal, Would the show be Cancled. Greetings and Felicitations from the Lord of Balrogs! |
|
01-05-2008, 08:02 PM | #421 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 'Round the corner, down the well, passed the Balrog, straight to HELL!
Posts: 77
|
Quote:
First off: You say nerd like it's a bad thing. Second: I wasn't whining (per se), and the only reason I did was because I had yet to realize that entering anything in hopes to end it would be a futile effort.
__________________
My time is at an end, for I have walked from Valinor to the Far-east where men have not gone for millennia. Demons have fallen before me. And now... I must rest... |
|
01-29-2008, 03:34 PM | #422 |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
|
Couldn't resist replying on this thread...
As some others already stated: no where in any writings of Tolkien is there any description of Balrogs with wings... I guess this misconception comes from in the mention of wings in Moria. But those of you who believe they are actual wings as opposed to a wing-shaped shadow must have poor English reading skills indeed or you haven't read the books at all. Don't remember the exact words in the bridge of khazad dum passage now but wasn't is something like "it's wings spread from wall to wall..."? Now correct my if I'm wrong, but wasn't this episode in one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) halls of Moria. If they were actual physical wings this would imply the Balrog was immensly tall. This huge size would also imply that: The balrogs sword and whip would have been redundant as it would have been able to crush Gandalf like a bug. The wings would also have been made redundant as it would have been able to step over the gorge as if it were a pothole. Now as you all know the balrog walked (!) out on the bridge (which was just wide enough to pass one man at a time) where Gandalf fought it and cast it down in the abyss by raising the bridge. All this would have been impossible if the Balrog was gigantic, let alone had wings. Now there's absolutely nothing in this passage that implies that the Balrog had wings. Sure you could argue that it had wing but was flightless you could also argue that it had a leather jacket. If I said Balrogs wore leather jackets you would call me crazy though. |
02-16-2008, 11:02 AM | #423 |
Deadnight Chanter
|
It's been so long I forgot my own position back at the time... lucky it gives one their own choice in italics, so I must have been of the no-winger party if this software is to be trusted...
But, skip spence, surely you don't imply that whatever walked out at Gandalf and Co was nothing more than an undersized excuse for a balrog that only grew in the telling over the ages the tale has been told? Why should we diminish its stature in order to get rid of its wings (if any)?
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
02-16-2008, 06:33 PM | #424 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
I don't think there's any written evidence that balrogs were--or Durin's Bane was particularly--gigantic. Greater than a man in size, for sure, and capable of flaring their silhouette to demoralizing effect, but not so large as to be unable (obviously) to make their way through the less spectacular doorways and hallways of Moria. Greater than Sauron in physical form? It seems unlikely. After a certain point, size becomes impractical for an intelligent creature, especially if we assume that, as Maiar, balrogs were probably accustomed to more comfortable dwellings than holes in mountains such as dragons made use of (note: Moria was not just a hole in a mountain).
|
02-17-2008, 01:24 AM | #425 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
|
Hole in a Mountain? Why, yes, the whole maze of...
Quote:
I didn't say Balrogs were 'gigantic', did I? Was just interested in train of thought behind the conclusion In fact, it must have been of moderate size (scene of Ganlalf holding the door being an evidence), just it seemed somewhat strange to mee that people would need to rely on abstract reasoning and law of physics and the such when textual evidence is there to make use of, few pages back from the bridge scene Quote:
Indeed, something capabale of 'laying hold of the iron ring' designed by dwarves and for dwarves' use, could not have been more than a few times larger than a dwarf, let alone problem of squeezing into the hall in the first place. Note also that the door is shattered not by a physical force that would have been a natural choice for a creature that large rather than 'words of command' and 'counter spells' (to be quite truthul, the door is, in the end, shattered by physical force of the 'roof of the chamber' falling down, but I'm talking cause here) Anyway, even if I seem to be repeating Skip's argument's to an extent (though with greater eloquence I dare to believe), it was his somewhat harsh ranking of all pro-wingers to a man under 'poor English skills' file that made me want to tease him a bit.
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
||
02-17-2008, 02:33 AM | #426 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
ehe.
|
02-17-2008, 05:31 AM | #427 | |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
|
Quote:
The physical appearance of a Balrog is never directly described, nor is its size. Tolkien probably wanted to allow the reader to make a mental image of the creature far scarier than what he'd be able to conjure up. If you imagine the Balrog with wings there's nothing wrong with that. Nor is it right. I'm not trying to diminish it's size. Where have I said anything like that? And if you really can't follow my train of thought, you too must have rather poor English reading skills. Seriously. Last edited by skip spence; 02-17-2008 at 05:36 AM. |
|
02-17-2008, 05:52 AM | #428 |
Wisest of the Noldor
|
Actually, it depends on the sex of the Balrog. As with fireflies, only males have wings. (See Letter #144, and "Morgoth's Ring" p. 70.)
Mind you, I'm not sure if this is strictly canonical. At the time Tolkien was playing with the idea that Morgoth had bred the Balrogs from a species of insect, a concept that he later abandoned.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
02-17-2008, 06:38 AM | #429 | |||
Deadnight Chanter
|
Mea culpa, confiteor. Maybe I tend to see depths below surfaces where none have been intended. Still
Quote:
Quote:
Of course, I may have been taking it a bit too far, but your own post did not contain an indicator as to what definition opposed to immensely tall would you have stopped at yourself, so the scale of immensely tall - diminutively short is open to be used according to my liking. Quote:
As I've mentioned earlier, I believe [mark the verb used] Balrogs were not winged. Still, your uncompromising (to say the least) manner, merciful Sir (M'am?) forces me to argue with you over an issue we, apparently, agree upon ----------------------------------------------- Nerwen, you must have the wrong letter there, at least all letter 144 says about Balrogs is as follows: The Balrog is a survivor from the Silmarillion and the legends of the First Age. So is Shelob. The Balrogs, of whom the whips were the chief weapons, were primeval spirits of destroying fire, chief servants of the primeval Dark Power of the First Age. They were supposed to have been all destroyed in the overthrow of Thangorodrim, his fortress in the North. But it is here found (there is usually a hang-over especially of evil from one age to another) that one had escaped and taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglin (the Misty Mountains). It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is – and doubtless Gandalf. As far as I'm concernend, letters don't contain any further mention of Balrogs but one as follows: The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do Letter 210 Can't remember male/female wings/fireflies concept either, would be glad to be directed
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
|||
02-17-2008, 06:57 AM | #430 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
|
Sorry, I meant Letter #134.
The firefly reference is from the second section of "Annals of Aman" (Morgoth's Ring): Quote:
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. Last edited by Nerwen; 02-17-2008 at 07:06 AM. Reason: Adding a quote. |
|
02-17-2008, 07:27 AM | #431 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
|
I'm afraid not
Quote:
Quote:
Still can't seem able to locate it, will require a little bit of time I guess
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
||
02-17-2008, 07:32 AM | #432 |
Wisest of the Noldor
|
Hang on, maybe I'm thinking of Letter #143.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
02-17-2008, 07:38 AM | #433 | |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
|
Quote:
You are indeed free to come up with wild interpretations of what I'm writing to make a forced argument but this isn't very constructive, nor does it make you look very clever. Do you know the opposite of clever? Use the same logic as before and see what comes up. |
|
02-17-2008, 07:40 AM | #434 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Nerwen maybe wasn't evil in the beginning, but she obviously is now. You made it up, confess! I am not a HoME expert, but there are surely many around here, and I'd really wonder if such an argument as you quote existed, that it would not have been quoted here, even though if it were, surely there will be a debate whether it is or is not canonical.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
02-17-2008, 07:45 AM | #435 |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
|
^Yes, I suspect that HerenIstarion must have misinterpreted Nerwen's post slightly, despite all his eloquence and masterful command of the English language, .
|
02-17-2008, 07:46 AM | #436 |
Wisest of the Noldor
|
Letter #243 also contains information about Balrog reproduction. Apparently a Balrog is born every minute.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
02-17-2008, 07:49 AM | #437 |
shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
|
There's a sucker born every minute, PT Barnum once said. I wasn't aware he was talking about Balrogs.
|
02-17-2008, 07:52 AM | #438 |
Wisest of the Noldor
|
Well, now you know better.
__________________
"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
02-17-2008, 08:11 AM | #439 | ||||
Deadnight Chanter
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 02-17-2008 at 08:13 AM. Reason: Withdrawn a remark - misread original post |
||||
02-17-2008, 11:21 AM | #440 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
|
Nerwen, you're evil. You know, you had me finding my this far unread copy of Morgoth's Ring and skim through the Annals of Aman thinking "Nerwen just can't be serious about it"... The good thing is that skimming the book made me sure I must continue my HoME reading project soon, not "when I have time".
But, if Balrogs were like fireflies, then we would have an interesting and valuable piece of information: Durin's Bane was a girl.
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
|
|
|