Plagiarism? Or Simple Coincidence? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alonna · 12-30-2007, 04:34 PM

A number of parallels can be found between HP and LOTR. There's the similarity in names between Wormtail and Wormtongue who play similar roles of betrayal but are later spared from death. There's also what happens when the characters wear the locket horcrux, and it begins to affect them in ways similar to how the ring affects people.

Alfirin · 12-30-2007, 05:03 PM

As for Star Wars practically any fantasy can seem to be the origin of it. Lucas based all of the Star Wars charcters and the plot of the movies itself on mythological archetypes (He said so much) therefore all fantasy stories will seem to resonate with them since many of them draw from the same meta-legends. In fact I once read a great essay which drew parallels between Luke and Yoda's relationship in The Empire Strikes back and that between Miyamoto Yoshi-tsune and Sojobo the Tengu King in the classic Japanese legend Ushiwaka Maru .
as for Giant Spiders they too have a long an honorable history in fantasy, from the Japnese legend of the spider woan metioned earlier to the Lovecraft Mythos's Atlach-Nacha.

Lalwendë · 12-30-2007, 05:25 PM

If you look at just about any fantasy these days you'll find things that could be said to have come from Tolkien. It's not plagiarism, it's accident, inevitability or in some cases, lack of imagination, that's all. As for Rowling using the name 'Longbottom', well that's a common British surname

Lord Halsar · 12-30-2007, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

If you look at just about any fantasy these days you'll find things that could be said to have come from Tolkien. It's not plagiarism, it's accident, inevitability or in some cases, lack of imagination, that's all. As for Rowling using the name 'Longbottom', well that's a common British surname

Exactly. That is why the thread is named "Plagiarism? OR Simple Coincidence?"

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 12-30-2007, 08:08 PM

Hmmm... I've never read Harry Pooter or Erigon(or however you spell it), but my friend, Laurinquë probably would have many things to ad don this thread since she has read those books and really the only reason why she is on the Downs or finished reading LotR is because I would have killed her if she didn't. (She happens to love them now, and is anxious to watch the PJ movies with me(not to make her have any bad rep, since she is one of my best friends))

Bêthberry · 12-30-2007, 08:26 PM

Perhaps a detailed explanation of plagiarism would be helpful--something even a bit more elaborated than a mere definition.

Wiki on plagiarism

Indiana University student FAQ on plagiarism

University of North Carolina Student fact sheet on the big P

I seem to recall a very rough rule of thumb was 'seven or more words' in a coherent phrase, so similarity of single words or names would not be in itself sufficient evidence to prove the dastardly deed.

Then again, in the artistic world, imitation is said to be evidence of the finest form of flattery.

davem · 12-31-2007, 02:33 AM

I'd suggest reading some Icelandic Sagas, the Eddas, the Kalevala, Beowulf & the Mabinogion if you want to see blatant plagiarism on Tolkien's part - in fact, some of it is so blatant you can't believe he had the gall - luckily for him, the stuff he stole was out of copyright....

Of course, when its Tolkien we talk about 'sources' & 'influences' & stuff.....

(check my sig...)

Lindale · 12-31-2007, 09:43 AM

There's this book I just saw this afternoon. Tales Before Tolkien, published by the same publisher as my LotR and Sil and Hobbit (the American). Contains bits of the Icelandic sagas, a really short version of the Ring of the Nibelungs, and stuff I don't remember. Somewhere in the back cover it says that the book
s content influenced Tolkien and will continue doing so the next generations of creative writers. The nature of the old epics, isn't it?

Also, an interesting notion in Lit is that There is Nothing New in under the Sun.

For the Hero, example Aragorn, it follows a certain archetype. More or less the same as the hero thing with, say, Arthas or Luke Skywalker or whatnot. Prophecy before birth and so on: it's in Joseph Campbell's book The Hero with a Thousand Faces. And so on with characters like Gandalf, Iluvatar, Elendil and the fall of Numenor, the list is endless. Of course the details vary. For example, the "goddess" of Aragorn is Arwen, whereas Luke doesn't have one exactly. But they both have the wise old bearded man for their mentors.

In the University of the Philippines, this is an example of Plagiarism:

Old pond — frogs jumped in — splash! (the original stuff by Basho, the haikuist)

which I change into, say,

The river -- frogs jumping -- the sound of the water

(Of course it's very crudely done, but I hope you see the point.)

Lalwendë · 12-31-2007, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Then again, in the artistic world, imitation is said to be evidence of the finest form of flattery.

It's the very soul of Post-modernism, innit?

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

I'd suggest reading some Icelandic Sagas, the Eddas, the Kalevala, Beowulf & the Mabinogion if you want to see blatant plagiarism on Tolkien's part - in fact, some of it is so blatant you can't believe he had the gall - luckily for him, the stuff he stole was out of copyright....

Yep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Völuspá
11–12. Nýi and Niði, Norðri and Suðri, Austri and Vestri, Alþjófr, Dvalinn, Bífurr, Báfurr, Bömburr, Nóri, Án and Ánarr, Ái, Mjöðvitnir, Veigr and Gandalfr, Vindalfr, Þráinn, Þekkr and Þorinn, Þrór, Litr and Vitr, Nár and Nýráðr, Reginn and Ráðsviðr — now I have told the list of Dvergar right.
13–15. Fili, Kili, Fundinn, Náli, Hepti, Víli, Hanarr, Svíorr, {Nár and Náinn, Nípingr, Dáinn, Billingr, Brúni, Bíldr and Búri}, Frár, Hornbori, Frægr and Lóni, Aurvangr, Jari, Eikinskjaldi.
14–16. To tell the talk, the Dvergar in the generation of Dvalinn were [as] a race of [conquering] lions upto [the generation] of Lofarr. They sought settlements from the halls of stone [to] Aurvangr ('plot of mud') to Jöruvöllr. There was Draupnir and Dolgþrasir, Hár, Haugspori, Hlévangr, Glóinn, {Dóri, Óri, Dúfr, Andvari,} Skirvir, Virvir, Skáfiðr, Ái, Álfr and Yngvi, Eikinskjaldi, Fjalarr and Frosti, Finnr and Ginnarr. So [they will] remember while the eras [of humans] live, the list of the long descent [of the ancestors] of Lofarr.

Have a look at this on Wikipedia, it's interesting!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_dwarves

The Might · 01-01-2008, 05:54 AM

I would have liked to have a Dwarf named Frosti in the books...

Also Frár from those in the list is stolen...

Lord Halsar · 12-31-2007, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfirin

As for Star Wars practically any fantasy can seem to be the origin of it. Lucas based all of the Star Wars charcters and the plot of the movies itself on mythological archetypes (He said so much) therefore all fantasy stories will seem to resonate with them since many of them draw from the same meta-legends. In fact I once read a great essay which drew parallels between Luke and Yoda's relationship in The Empire Strikes back and that between Miyamoto Yoshi-tsune and Sojobo the Tengu King in the classic Japanese legend Ushiwaka Maru .
as for Giant Spiders they too have a long an honorable history in fantasy, from the Japnese legend of the spider woan metioned earlier to the Lovecraft Mythos's Atlach-Nacha.

You sure know your Japanese folklore don't you. I can't even read most of their names, let alone the legends themselves(and believe me, I've tried

).

12-30-2007, 05:03 PM	#2
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	As for Star Wars practically any fantasy can seem to be the origin of it. Lucas based all of the Star Wars charcters and the plot of the movies itself on mythological archetypes (He said so much) therefore all fantasy stories will seem to resonate with them since many of them draw from the same meta-legends. In fact I once read a great essay which drew parallels between Luke and Yoda's relationship in The Empire Strikes back and that between Miyamoto Yoshi-tsune and Sojobo the Tengu King in the classic Japanese legend Ushiwaka Maru . as for Giant Spiders they too have a long an honorable history in fantasy, from the Japnese legend of the spider woan metioned earlier to the Lovecraft Mythos's Atlach-Nacha. Last edited by Alfirin; 12-30-2007 at 05:05 PM. Reason: writing Miymotos given name into a form the editing system won't block out

12-30-2007, 05:25 PM	#3
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	If you look at just about any fantasy these days you'll find things that could be said to have come from Tolkien. It's not plagiarism, it's accident, inevitability or in some cases, lack of imagination, that's all. As for Rowling using the name 'Longbottom', well that's a common British surname __________________ Gordon's alive!

12-30-2007, 08:08 PM	#5
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	Hmmm... I've never read Harry Pooter or Erigon(or however you spell it), but my friend, Laurinquë probably would have many things to ad don this thread since she has read those books and really the only reason why she is on the Downs or finished reading LotR is because I would have killed her if she didn't. (She happens to love them now, and is anxious to watch the PJ movies with me(not to make her have any bad rep, since she is one of my best friends)) __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

12-30-2007, 08:26 PM	#6
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Perhaps a detailed explanation of plagiarism would be helpful--something even a bit more elaborated than a mere definition. Wiki on plagiarism Indiana University student FAQ on plagiarism University of North Carolina Student fact sheet on the big P I seem to recall a very rough rule of thumb was 'seven or more words' in a coherent phrase, so similarity of single words or names would not be in itself sufficient evidence to prove the dastardly deed. Then again, in the artistic world, imitation is said to be evidence of the finest form of flattery. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

12-31-2007, 02:33 AM	#7
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I'd suggest reading some Icelandic Sagas, the Eddas, the Kalevala, Beowulf & the Mabinogion if you want to see blatant plagiarism on Tolkien's part - in fact, some of it is so blatant you can't believe he had the gall - luckily for him, the stuff he stole was out of copyright.... Of course, when its Tolkien we talk about 'sources' & 'influences' & stuff..... (check my sig...) __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

12-30-2007, 04:34 PM	#1
Alonna Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 33	A number of parallels can be found between HP and LOTR. There's the similarity in names between Wormtail and Wormtongue who play similar roles of betrayal but are later spared from death. There's also what happens when the characters wear the locket horcrux, and it begins to affect them in ways similar to how the ring affects people.

12-31-2007, 09:43 AM	#8
Lindale Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: midway upon... in a forest dark Posts: 975	Not coincidence but not plagiarism either: Influences I say There's this book I just saw this afternoon. Tales Before Tolkien, published by the same publisher as my LotR and Sil and Hobbit (the American). Contains bits of the Icelandic sagas, a really short version of the Ring of the Nibelungs, and stuff I don't remember. Somewhere in the back cover it says that the book s content influenced Tolkien and will continue doing so the next generations of creative writers. The nature of the old epics, isn't it? Also, an interesting notion in Lit is that There is Nothing New in under the Sun. For the Hero, example Aragorn, it follows a certain archetype. More or less the same as the hero thing with, say, Arthas or Luke Skywalker or whatnot. Prophecy before birth and so on: it's in Joseph Campbell's book The Hero with a Thousand Faces. And so on with characters like Gandalf, Iluvatar, Elendil and the fall of Numenor, the list is endless. Of course the details vary. For example, the "goddess" of Aragorn is Arwen, whereas Luke doesn't have one exactly. But they both have the wise old bearded man for their mentors. In the University of the Philippines, this is an example of Plagiarism: Old pond — frogs jumped in — splash! (the original stuff by Basho, the haikuist) which I change into, say, The river -- frogs jumping -- the sound of the water (Of course it's very crudely done, but I hope you see the point.) __________________ The heart does things for reasons Reason itself cannot comprehend. - Blaise Pascal Legal Madness.

01-01-2008, 05:54 AM	#10
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	I would have liked to have a Dwarf named Frosti in the books... Also Frár from those in the list is stolen... __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown