WW XXXXI: With a Twist

[Kath]

Okaay. Boro, I don't entirely know where you got that suspicion from. When trying to argue out a point you generally give both sides and come to a conclusion, which is what I did. Are you actually suspicious of me or did you just need to vote early?

Back on Nerwen, you say your suggestion of a cursed Seer wasn't serious, but it certainly felt it. People were throwing out ideas and though they were unlikely scenarios (such as tp telling certain people to post certain things in the pre-game discussion) they were meant seriously, so I don't see that you can put your own unlikely theory in the same category if you meant it in a facetious way.

Finally I want to pull up something Noggie said too:

Because everyone has hunches and feelings but a villager seldomly tries to build up general distrust just based on a hunch with nothing to support it.

Seldom but sometimes. Valier is a prime example of that, and there are times when there simply isn't the evidence to support such an assertion, which is often that case on Day 1. I'm not defending Mac (who was the subject of this discussion) but I do want to point out that it does happen.

[Macalaure]

When I made my last post I gave some points against Nogrod because they were all that I could come up with so early on. Now I will focus on him because he's clearly up to no good.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

He's (Legate) a valuable player for the village and I would leave him be on this Day unless something more drastic comes to the fore from his part. There's no sense in losing our best hands with Day1 lottery.

I'm not pessimistic Mac. I'm always the optimist.

You'd be the first optimist to call Day 1 a lottery. While I don't share the suspicions of Legate, I find it somewhat strange that you discourage considering him too strongly this early on. On this day, we all will probably have to vote because of weak reasons in the end, simply due to the nature of Day 1, but if the strongest of those weak reasons point towards a 'stronger' player, I'm all for lynching that one.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'd like to know what you would have said in the second post of the whole game that would have had "point in discussing" it with your standards?

You could have said something instead of letting others do so and remain in the background of that particular obviously nonsensical matter - like Legate did.


And then he blows up very feeble points to a long ramble to make them look like something, dropping names like "bogus post", "smelling a rat", etc. Note also how he mixes what I said with Shasta's strange/joking arguments to make them look bad by association.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

When a player says that someone "rubs them the wrong way" or that s/he "doesn't sit right" with her/him - or that they "raise the eyebrow" - but will not bring forwards anything more solid I'm smelling a rat. Why? Because everyone has hunches and feelings but a villager seldomly tries to build up general distrust just based on a hunch with nothing to support it. An innocent villager normally stands up for her/his case when s/he has something. With the wolves it's different as they have no actual case or any real suspicion as they are trying to get an innocent to the gallows.
....
Generally it makes me wonder why such a bright player like Mac had nothing to say at that point of the game but to bring forwards all this "out of thin air nothing" about my posts. I mean yes I might be mistaken as when some people just jump on you with this kind of nonsense you tend to feel they are wolves trying to get you. But at this point it's my best explanation to Mac's behaviour.

The way I see it, then his only argument is, that I used "rub the wrong way" and "raise an eyebrow. The rest is general ramble that you could accuse anyone with at this early stage. I don't see why an innocent should bother to do such a thing.

Note also the way he shortened my post in his quote to make it look less like a careful early day one comment and more like a baseless accusation with no points! (check 82 and 113, please)

The whole thing looks very, very contrived and written with evil intent.


I only took a short look at anybody else, I admit. I'm short on time today. On this short look I didn't see anything obviously wolvish. I will have to vote soon. Nogrod is probably going to get my vote for reasons stated above and before.

[mormegil]

Okay, I have only read through post 113 so far but I need to go to the woods to do a bit of wood cutting so I won't be back for a long while and I'm sure to miss some discussion. Will somebody please keep notes for me to catch up on?

Nogrod, I expect you to keep to you quite promise. That would cut the total post count down by half at least .

Boro's quick vote of Kath seems rather odd to me but early votes tend to anyway. He bears watching.

[Boromir88]

Lucky me, putsied around at work for 3 hours and then was told to go home...so you have been blessed with my presense for the rest of the day (that is until I have this narrator part to do in a children's christmas musical )

Farael, doesn't it seem like whatever village we are in, we are at eachother's throats? I find that quite interesting...I suggest to you, that you go pick on someone else, because you're barking up the wrong tree. See, (oh look I used the word again!) if it comes down to it, for my own safety I would have to get you lynched, and that is something I don't want to happen, because you are an agressive no-nonsense player...that's very good to have. Plus, you're just an innocent, and if you're dead, I'm good as dead the next day, that will make Noggie's "pessimistic" feelings become a reality. So, it's best for the village if you just went and picked on someone else.

Also, I would suggest you do what Nerwen said, and that is read more carefully. (Isn't this what I was talking about? If we aren't clear we lead to wrong conclusions and that gets the wrong people dead)...for instance:

Finally, and another big problem here, is that Boromir is in favour of lynching people based on quantity rather than quality of posting.

I acknowledge Nogrod's behavior, because that's how he does it...that's his thought process. But read a bit more and you'll notice that I never suggested the thing you claim here, nor did I agree with Nogrod's approach (now I'll do the bolding):

One strategy, that I've considered many times adopting, but I rather think sometimes "quiet" is mistaken as "unhelpful," which isn't the case at all.

Was this an attack against Noggie? No, not at all, Rikae said something with regards to Nogrod's tendancy to want to lynch the quiet, and I gave the explanation.

The only other thing I care to explain is the suggestion I was hinting at being the Seer. And to that I say read Nerwen's post...have I really been away for that long that you've forgotten my controversial style? Whether I'm the seer, or not, I write off innocents and wolves right at the beginning and...this always gets me into trouble early. Maybe, I should change since it always gives me headaches, but I rather like creating such controversy...look at the discussion that has followed?

I say "see" all the time, it was your choice to put emphasis on the word...if I was dropping off a "Seer" hint I would have said "seereally"...that I've done before, but I say "see" all the time.

Okaay. Boro, I don't entirely know where you got that suspicion from. When trying to argue out a point you generally give both sides and come to a conclusion, which is what I did. Are you actually suspicious of me or did you just need to vote early?~Kath

Let me explain, no that will take too long, so let me sum up...You accuse Nerwen, then defend it as being "confused." That's what I find supsicious, and no I tend not to second guess myself. Maybe you think that is wrong and I should go about it differently, but when I think too much it leads my mind in complete disarray and I start thinking of double-bluffs, triple-bluffs whatever...I've never been in a village with Nerwen before, but I don't find what caused the big deal.

When first reading Nogrod's statement about the Seer not being completely trustworth I had the "what the -" reaction as well. Granted, I wasn't thinking about the curse, I thought Nogrod was bringing up the possibility of a false seer, and that being on of the "twists" in the game. That the Seer was some Miss Cleo or something with a distorted "eye." I had the same "what in heavens is Nogrod talking about" reaction, but that's all been clearly explained.

So, now that I have bundles of free time it's time to catch up with the rest of the action...

[Macalaure]

There might be a chance that I can be here short before the deadline, but I can't be sure, so I'm going to vote now. Merry Christmas to you all!

Well, except to

++Nogrod




Seriously, read everything he posts for today very critical. If you think he's innocent, listen to him, if not, then don't let him twist your mind and please don't hesitate to vote for him.

[Aganzir]

Something I realised while re-reading... Noggie and Mac's accusations against each other look way too convenient. Now that would be a very nice tactics for such bold players like them- suspect the fellow wolf quite vocally and even vote him on Day 1, then maybe drop the suspicions later...

Originally Posted by Noggie

If Mac starts posting his normally helpful stuff I'd be happy not to vote for him and rather vote for someone who doesn't contribute.

They both just took up suspecting each other so easily, as if it had been decided beforehand.

Shasta then. Suspecting Noggie, with quite forced-looking reasons. Noggie suspecting Shasta. It'd sound unlikely that three of the four wolves were accusing one another, but not impossible I think. Something worth trying if the wolves want to be sporty? Something worth trying just because people probably don't believe they would do it?

[Kath]

Let me explain, no that will take too long, so let me sum up...You accuse Nerwen, then defend it as being "confused." That's what I find supsicious, and no I tend not to second guess myself. Maybe you think that is wrong and I should go about it differently, but when I think too much it leads my mind in complete disarray and I start thinking of double-bluffs, triple-bluffs whatever...I've never been in a village with Nerwen before, but I don't find what caused the big deal.

Alrighty Boro, it looks like our problem is a difference in playing styles. I don't think yours is wrong at all, but mine is born from years of writing essays and I find it hard to reach a conclusion without arguing both sides of the argument! As to the 'big deal' with Nerwen, it is simply that her reaction to what Nogrod said seemed over the top and, to me, she explained it very oddly. I didn't defend it as being confused either, I suggested it was due to her relative newbieness which, due to her adeptness at this game, is sometimes forgotten.

Now that's gonna be it from me til the morning I think unless I come post after midnight mass. Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

[Rikae]

I don't know what to make of the whole Macalaure/Nogrod conflict. To me, neither of them seems particularly suspicious: Nogrod, though I disagree with him, seems to be a quieter version of his normal self, and Macalaure doesn't ring any alarms for me, because although his points against Nogrod aren't particularly strong, they have that half-intuitive quality his suspicions generally have. I trust an aggressive Mac more than a passive one.
Mormegil's reaction to Nerwen is odd, indeed: first he defends himself for throwing weak suspicions around, than attacks me for doing the same. It seems to me like a desperate move, although, on the other hand, I seem to recall Morm having a generally touchy sort of style. I'm interested in hearing the opinions of those who have played with him more often.
Shasta seems to have confused me with Nerwen, and to generally have a hurried and careless quality about him. Is this the franticness of a wolf who feels himself cornered, though, or the carelessness of an ordo with nothing to lose? Although it seems more like the former to me, I can't say I'm completely comfortable with lynching Shasta, as he seems to be presenting the usual profile of the misguided day-one lynch - too obvious. I've seen such bandwagons go awry too many times not to question the situation that seems to be arising around Shasta.
Boro, yes, I'm familiar with Nogrod's usual line of reasoning - however, in his reply to me he seemed to be expressing not so much a "spare the vocal for now" attitude as a "spare the elite/the good players" one, and in the process, suggesting we shouldn't even make note of any suspicious activities on their part at the time being. I certainly wasn't advocating lynching Legate at that point, as I would think Nogrod would have recognized, so his reply to me seemed unreasonable.
Now, Boro' s reasoning against Kath I simply do not understand. I'll admit, I'm not that familiar with Kath's style, but to me what she said seems perfectly reasonable. Mentioning all possibilities, especially at this early point in the game, is not "flip-flopping", it's a responsible way to post when one is uncertain.
Well, then - I can't really say for whom I'm likely to vote at this point. I would really like to see more from everyone, especially TM and Izzy. Now I'm off to make dinner and decorate the tree, so: Merry Christmas to you all!

EDIT: X'd with Kath

[The Saucepan Man]

Halellujah! My connection is back up, although still a bit dodgy and it may only be temporary. Don’t know why it sometimes does this, but it’s something to do with the ‘phone line I think.

Aaaanyway. I have had a chance to review the Day in more detail.

I am still slightly concerned about Nerwen for her seemingly cautious approach. She has made many apparently helpful comments, but said very little about whom she suspects, and such suspicions as she has expressed have been very mildly voiced.

As for Shasta, who also pinged my radar early on, I am now rather more concerned by how much suspicion there seems to be building against him. He is more vocal than normal, but he makes the point that this is a response to suggestions that he should be more active. Rather than ‘nervous’ or ‘forced’, as some have said, he coes across to me as rather happy to be involved. He has thrown out a few crackpot theories, but that’s quite often the way on Day 1 when there’s not much to go on. It doesn’t seem nearly enough to condemn him, yet he seems to be fast becoming the habitual Day 1 scapegoat. And I don‘t like it at all.

In any event, I have bigger fish to fry now. Two villagers in particular stand out to me as fairly suspicious, based upon events thus far.

Firstly, Nogrod. Mainly, it is his reaction to Mac’s original points against him. They seemed quite mildly expressed to me. Yet Nogrod’s reaction against them (especially in #113) look to br wholly over the top. It is pretty standard on Day 1 for people to throw out mild suspicions in the opening skirmishes, yet Nogrod reacts to Mac’s points like - well, like a cornered Wolf. He attempts to comprehensively rubbish them, while at the same time launching a virulent counter-attack against Mac. He also looks to be encouraging the Shasta band-waggon, which causes me some additional concern. I rather agree with Mac that our Noggie is up to no good.

My other main suspicion at this stage is mormegil. In #83, he said this:

Originally Posted by mormegil

Right now, Farael seems the most, in your face, vocal person which always makes me wonder, but to be fair it seems fairly standard for him and I do tend to be a bit suspicious of him but if I were to pick a suspect now it would be him.

Now, I rather agree with him that Farael’s ‘in your face’ approach is fairly standard for him, yet morm uses this to found a suspicion against him. How can this alone raise suspicion, when it’s his usual style?

I also find this quite strange:

Originally Posted by mormegil in #91

On the other hand, Rikae, in her two posts, seems rather overly eager and antsy to throw suspicion all over, much like a wolf would do.

Again, if I am not mistaken, this is Rikae’s standard approach. And morm is quite often the first to throw accusations around in the early stages to see what happens. I find it difficult to see why this should make her suspicious in his eyes.

So, I find morm’s cases against Farael and Rikae, both of whom appear to be acting pretty normally to me, to be rather weak and forced, and that worries me.

As for the others, I have some mild suspicion of Legate, mainly for his opening comment about the pre-game banter. As others have noted, this might well have been intended as a diversionary tactic, albeit tentatively expressed, and he backed off pretty quickly when it received a negative response. Since then, though, he has done nothing to worry me unduly. Boro, Eomer, Mac and Kath look pretty normal to me, so there’s nothing much to concern me there at present, and there is too little to go on with Isabelyka, Valier, Aganzir, the Might and Azaelia for me yet to form any strong impression.

In any event, in case I can’t get back on before the Day is out, I better vote now.

++Nogrod

Reasons stated above.

[Isabellkya]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Farael, I'm not all that happy about Shasta myself.

A possible double-bluff there, I think. Did Shaswolf just show his teeth? (While at the same time making sure that we know he can't be a wolf, because a wolf would have known about the pm situation– right?)

I think this particular piece of 'bluffing material' is a bit on the shallow side. It is just too obvious to have a proper effect. I don't think it should be ignored; yet I don't think we should hinge votes upon it.

Boromir is asserting his 'us-ness' a bit too strongly. I can't recall if this is usual style of word choice or not. It is another one of those shallower bluffing tools which are always obvious.

*********
Okay, I've made it to post 116 and now I must go. Hopefully I'll be able to return before my relatives arrive.

[Aganzir]

One vote for Kath, two for Nogrod.

Azaelia hasn't appeared yet.

Is there no modfire, or have I just managed to miss it being stated somewhere?

It's maybe a bit early to say this, as tp will deal a blow only after the second non-voting/non-contributing, but could these blows be of any help to figure out if a certain person is innocent or not? Just thinking aloud, as it's really no use speculating on that at the moment- as long as we don't know what those blows will be like. And not that I would recommend non-participating to anyone just that we'd find out if s/he's innocent.

Originally Posted by Espiem

I tend to find those who come across as cautious on Day 1 as suspicious, as I always think that is the best approach for a Wolf at the outset.

I disagree. There are as many different approaches as there are players. And that's definitely not the best approach if someone finds it suspicious.
Now tell me if you're always a cautious wolf at the beginning of a game? Tell me if you've been cautious this far? I must say I don't particularly like the way Spm sneaks his attitude in (like Noggie said about Mac) and at the same time directs suspicions away from his own behaviour. At the moment I don't consider him suspicious enough to receive my vote though, but I'll keep an eye on him.

Originally Posted by Kath

I'm not defending Mac (who was the subject of this discussion) but I do want to point out that it does happen.

Now this may be grasping at straws, but that "I'm not defending Mac" caught my eye. It just looks like she's trying to make sure that everybody realise she's not on the same side with Mac if one of them is lynched and revealed to be a wolf.

I'm off to sleep now- be back & vote before the deadline.

**

P.S. Thought I'd share with you that I just noticed my cousin looks exactly like the phantom.

edit: xed with Izzie

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Something I realised while re-reading... Noggie and Mac's accusations against each other look way too convenient. Now that would be a very nice tactics for such bold players like them- suspect the fellow wolf quite vocally and even vote him on Day 1, then maybe drop the suspicions later...

They both just took up suspecting each other so easily, as if it had been decided beforehand.

Shasta then. Suspecting Noggie, with quite forced-looking reasons. Noggie suspecting Shasta. It'd sound unlikely that three of the four wolves were accusing one another, but not impossible I think. Something worth trying if the wolves want to be sporty? Something worth trying just because people probably don't believe they would do it?

Aganzir, I've already said that my suspicions on EggNogrod at the beginning were meant to be taken in jest.

As to how vocal I'm being, some of you said I should be more active... but now that I am being more active, what I'm seeing is "Hey, Shasta's being unusually active. How suspicious!" I just can't win.

Also, don't worry, those of you who haven't had me make you a suitably-Christmas name yet, I'm working on it. ^_^

Edit: X'ed with Aganzir.

[Farael]

*Bares teeth* (note, it says teeth, not fangs)

So SPM we meet at last... and to make things worse, you are being reasonable and have done nothing that I can use to accuse you of wolvishness

Fine, I'll admit the possibility that you MIGHT not be a wolf this time. Though I won't trust you until you get lynched and found ordo or we lynch the last wolf.

A few things I've noticed

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Now this may be grasping at straws, but that "I'm not defending Mac" caught my eye. It just looks like she's trying to make sure that everybody realise she's not on the same side with Mac if one of them is lynched and revealed to be a wolf.

Yep, sure looks like grasping at straws to me.

Boromir answered my theory quite comprehensively and I'm willing to admit that it was mostly made up to see his reaction. I'm still concerned about his vote and in spite of what he may say, unsettled at his "I see" comment. Maybe he DOES use it all the time, but it looks like a bad seer hint to me.

As to my other suspicion (Shasta) I still find him unsettling. I strongly disagree with the point of view (I think Rikae's) that "he's too easy a Day 1 lynch". I think that Day 1 are the days where we HAVE to take those easy kills if nothing better appears, as day 8, with the villager numbers greatly thinned is not a good time to "take a chance".

There seems to be a growing sense of discontent against Nogrod and I'm not sure about it. On one hand, I am unsettled about his (parapharsing someone else) "elitist" approach where he dismisses off-hand accusations against "useful" villagers on the basis that they could be an asset later on.

First of all, he probably falls into this "elite" group (at least according to himself) and thus it would be a wise move to ensure his own survival. Second, this village is full of experienced players, so pretty much anyone can be considered an "elite" player.

While I am sure that he did not mean that all experienced players are above and beyond suspicion on Day 1, the implications of this approach are ugly.

However, it should be noted that this IS his normal playing style, so while I strongly disagree on this perspective (see above for the reasons) I don't think this alone is enough to think him wolfish.

I'm still leaning more towards Shasta even if he is an "easy" kill than Nogrod. Boromir is still there as well, but he does not worry me as much for now.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

One evil tactic, which I am very familiar with, is to pick out a 'victim' of quiet and unreadable participation and raise suspicion on them. This works particularly well when no-one else has yet scandalised said victim. It makes the evil-doer appear not only original, but inventive in his/her spying methods.

And that's why I'm mighty suspicious of those who are sticking to their guns this early. It's narrow-minded, and unnecessarily so. Sure, we have to vote, but there's nothing wrong with being a slight bit apologetic.

I have no certainties yet, and I admit this; but nobody should feel bad about seeing possible wolves in all corners of this village. Rather, it is to be commended. Blindly following the same path is either foolish or a dastardly plot.

[Valier]

just popping in quick, I see there is loads to read..... Let's see if I can catch up and at least come up with some sort of a suspect list. I shall be fairly busy tonight but I will get a list up and give it some thought before I vote.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Something I realised while re-reading... Noggie and Mac's accusations against each other look way too convenient. Now that would be a very nice tactics for such bold players like them- suspect the fellow wolf quite vocally and even vote him on Day 1, then maybe drop the suspicions later...

They both just took up suspecting each other so easily, as if it had been decided beforehand.

Aganzir, I've thought of that too. Their reactions do seem over the top. I'm not ready to vote for either of them yet, though, but I'm watching them.

On that note, what about the possibility that Boro and Kath are both wolves?

Then there's:

Shasta –Still looks wolfish, but is he too obvious?

The Saucepan Man –Is his defence of Shasta too prompt? Are his vague insinuations about people too sneaky? (I admit to bias on that one.) He's giving me a strange vibe, but I've never played with him before... I don't know.

Mormegil –I don't like his strange, self-contradictory accusations of Farael and Rikae... or the way, when I mildly drew attention to the Farael accusation, Morm blew right up.

At the moment I'm wavering between Morm and Shasta. I could be persuaded to vote Boro– or maybe even Kath (or Mac... or Nogrod...). We'll see.

I have to go now. I'll be back later to vote.

[Valier]

Ok sometimes I just hate computers, I was half way through my list and explanations and bang I hit something and I went back a page and lost everything.....Ugggg

Well since now my time is even more limited I will try and explain myself as best I can. I know my reasons may not always be that good, I can only try. I like to read and observe how people interact with each other and their reactions to different situations. So saying that, my list of suspects is made up of people who I just don't quite get. Something seems furry about them. For now I think that in some way these 6 stand out to me in some way that don't feel good.
My list goes from most suspicious to least.

Nerwen
Shasta
Mormegil
Macalaure
Isabellkya
Kath

Other than that there are a few I think, for now to be Ordo's, such as Legate, Aganzir and Farael. But that could change quickly I am sure. everyone else I am not quite sure of yet, I will be back in a few hours at least to get a vote in.

[Kath]

Back quickly as I've discovered I won't have a chance to vote before the deadline tomorrow. So:

++NERWEN

She was my top suspect as of my last post for her jumpiness and her confused explanation of her early theories.

Really goodnight this time, and merry christmas again!

[Nogrod]

Funny to see how things evolve... Just look closely if you have time and follow the thing...

Originally Posted by Mac

I find it somewhat strange that you discourage considering him (=Legate) too strongly this early on. On this day, we all will probably have to vote because of weak reasons in the end, simply due to the nature of Day 1, but if the strongest of those weak reasons point towards a 'stronger' player, I'm all for lynching that one.

Interesting, I'm agreeing what Mac says here is his stance: it's absolutely the same principle I have...

Originally Posted by Rikae

I'm familiar with Nogrod's usual line of reasoning - however, in his reply to me he seemed to be expressing not so much a "spare the vocal for now" attitude as a "spare the elite/the good players" one, and in the process, suggesting we shouldn't even make note of any suspicious activities on their part at the time being.

Now please, where did this elaboration come from? Not from anything I said. So from where?

Originally Posted by Farael

I am unsettled about his (parapharsing someone else) "elitist" approach where he dismisses off-hand accusations against "useful" villagers on the basis that they could be an asset later on.

Is this from something I wrote or something you read from someone else or which you crafted with your mates?


So I'd be glad to hear where I did say that I'm willing to leave all "elite" players - whoever they might be and with what grounds they could be chosen in this kind of village - without scrutiny and just frantically run for the quiet/unexperienced... whatever you wish to claim? Show me that post please. For that's the most stupid guideline to play I've ever heard!

I quess I've said this a thousand times but I seem to need to say it once again.

If we have nothing but slight hunches we should vote for those who try to hide and stay away from the fray during the first Day(s) (as later they will become real timebombs who can devastate the whole village), but if we have something better let's go for anyone whom we actually think is guilty. I didn't say we shouldn't consider Legate or any other. I said that with that "evidence" or cause to "raise eyebrows" I wouldn't go on lynching him (and that was pretty early in the game if you remember).

Now my main suspect was Mac toDay. If there is anything like elite - your word guys, not mine - he surely belongs to it. And I do still think he could be guilty of wolvery, and I think it would be good for the village to see him dead. So how can you say that I'm not considering "stronger" players while I'm at Mac's hairy tail?

But looking at this word-twisting I've cited up there I think I might have other suspects as well.

There were some other points made I thought should interest us all. I'll come back to them in a moment.

[Rikae]

Well, it's really very simple, Nogrod. I noted something Legate did which I found suspicious, and you responded:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

He's a valuable player for the village and I would leave him be on this Day unless something more drastic comes to the fore from his part.

This seemed like an argument against voicing suspicions of "valuable players" because that is all I had done. I hadn't said anything remotely like "we should lynch Legate", I merely said he seemed overcautious.
What you quoted was my elaboration of that to Boro, and though I found your (apparent) reasoning questionable, I didn't suspect you - then.
I don't think I've ever seen you this defensive before, and actually, it begins to worry me. I'm used to not only a more talkative, but a calmer Nogrod. Why so edgy all of a sudden?

[Farael]

Come on Noggie we've been playing together and we all know you have a bit of a sweet spot for experienced players. I don't blame you, guys like Morm, Legate, SPM can be quite a great asset if they are not wolves...

And yes, I made it clear I was paraphrasing somoene else with the word "elite" but I felt it summed up that train of thought quite appropiately. I still think this is your normal playing style so I'm not particularly suspicious of you over that alone, but you are acting a little edgy.

Regardless, I'm afraid that I am passing out (I didn't sleep at all last night) and I don't know if I'll be up tomorrow in time for a vote, so here goes it

++Shastanis

I know, I have a weak case against him, but right now the only other person who is worrying me with his defensiveness is Nogrod and I don't feel I'm THAT convinced yet to add another vote to his bandwagon.

[Boromir88]

So, here's what I'm going to do...

--Kath

Now please, where did this elaboration come from? Not from anything I said. So from where?~Nogrod

I believe Rikae was responding to my explanation about your typical behavior. Whatever it's worth, unless Nogrod you want to come out and say you are a wolf, I won't be voting for you. I think it'll be either morm or The Might for me (I'll get to that more in a bit).

So I'd be glad to hear where I did say that I'm willing to leave all "elite" players - whoever they might be and with what grounds they could be chosen in this kind of village - without scrutiny and just frantically run for the quiet/unexperienced... whatever you wish to claim? Show me that post please. For that's the most stupid guideline to play I've ever heard!

This is why I said we need to communicate better...things like this wouldn't happen if we thoroughly explained ourselves.

And that's why I'm mighty suspicious of those who are sticking to their guns this early. It's narrow-minded, and unnecessarily so. Sure, we have to vote, but there's nothing wrong with being a slight bit apologetic.~Eomer

I apologize when I lynch someone who is innocent, other than that...nope they won't get an apology from me.

I seem to recall Morm having a generally touchy sort of style. I'm interested in hearing the opinions of those who have played with him more often.

Morm is typically more calling for death/aggressive...here he seems conservative, like he doesn't want to commit to anyone. He's done a fairly good job of tossing around admittingly weak accusations at...Farael, Nerwen, Rikae, and myself...some other comments by morm that get my gut a churning:

On the other hand, Rikae, in her two posts, seems rather overly eager and antsy to throw suspicion all over, much like a wolf would do.

The bold is my emphasis, but I never like that...it reminds me too much of Aristotle's form of reasoning:

All wolves throw suspicion everywhere
Rikae is throwing suspicion everythere
Therefor Rikae is a wolf.

But there's lots of problems with this thought...for instance

All cats have tails
Maximillian has a tail
Therefor, Maximillian is a cat (Max is my cocker spaniel for anyone who doesn't know).

See the problem there? Sure wolves throw around suspicion, but so do many ordinary innocents. And maybe I'm mistaken, but it just seems like Morm's been throwing around more accusations than Rikae.

The Might hasn't posted too much, but that's not what makes me uneasy about him...he seems far too jolly, I mean it's nice to be receiving merry christmas' with the holiday hours away, but its like an attempt to appear friendly and buddy up. Call me the Grinch, I know in truth TM is wishing us a merry christmas, but the well-wishing in this village...just looks like an attempt to be friendly.

[Valier]

Ok well after a pretty good read, I've decided

++Nerwen

since all I picked up from her posts was references to other games...no really that was all I got. Nothing useful, seems weird. (to me anyways)

(MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!!)

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I noted something Legate did which I found suspicious, and you responded:

This seemed like an argument against voicing suspicions of "valuable players" because that is all I had done.

I can't see your point here. Sorry. Maybe we talk a different language then? Check the bolding I have made to my post you quoted. How can you read that in the way you post in your earlier post referring to the very same paragraph:

Originally Posted by Rikae

in his reply to me he seemed to be expressing not so much a "spare the vocal for now" attitude as a "spare the elite/the good players" one, and in the process, suggesting we shouldn't even make note of any suspicious activities on their part at the time being.

??? Okay. A communication breakdown or then you do this on purpose which means you're a wolf.

I don't know about the calmness issue here. I tend to get somewhat upset when the wolves start to encircle me in the broad daylight. I think that is quite natural. If I were a wolf and noticed you getting the votes after my mates had framed you I'd say exactly the same: "why do you look so defensive Rikae? Well. hmm... that's surely something to note". You see the point? Quite easy to see it as wolvish.

There are four wolves here doing their dirty bussiness... just a reminder.

~*~

Okay... this was what I was writing when I saw Rikae's post.


Why I consider Mac might be a wolf?

When he came in to the game there were almost twenty posts made and what he did was to concentrate his whole post on me - not even mentioning another name there.

That's not so bad as such.

But what he had to say? Nothing.

He threw forwards all those terms like "rubs me slightly the wrong way" (without any clarification where that came from) and "you raise my eyebrow there" (referring to my sentence where I said I'd be happy to hear if Legate had any reasons to believe the pre-game banter was of any importance - which I had strongly denied basing to my experience).

Then he goes to add this "There's little point in discussing them (= the "twists") now. I know we yet don't have a lot else to talk about, but still", referring to my first post, second of the whole game!

So what is this? Why is he doing this? "But still"???

And you dare to post this afterwards...

Originally Posted by Mac

Note also the way he shortened my post in his quote to make it look less like a careful early day one comment and more like a baseless accusation with no points! (check 82 and 113, please)

Now this is ridiculous. Your points? Points?

Yes I cut your post as I tried to reveal what your post was all about. Nothing but fabrication (check above).

If it would have been a "careful early Day1 comment" you would have discussed a couple of people posted that far, made points to and fro etc. But it wasn't like that.

So it's much a do about nothing. In the meantime it's a post that tries to make me look bad, intentionally and calmly. That's where I smell the rat. In the intent which leads to fabricating a post to paint someone black out of thin air.

I know I'm an easy target on Day1 as I tend to get involved and thence talked and thence on the lynch-line. The wolves have tried this very same procedure a few times already before (once they bandwaggoned me in bright daylight and got me lynched).

But I play this game to get involved. That's the game to me.

It sometimes demands some self-defence before going to sleep as I also like to play this game and do not wish to die on Day1.

To win the game as a wolf? Post once, at most twice a Day in the beginning. Do not say anything that is not approved by the majority. If you attack, take a victim who is easy to lynch (someone who involves her/himself and thence gets talked about). Always look you're nice towards most of the village as people are prone to vote for someone who has voiced a concern towardfs themselves...

But that's not the way we innocents win.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by EggNogrod

But that's not the way we innocents win.

"We innocents"? Seems to me someone's a bit hasty to reassure everyone that they're innocent, themselves. Why now, all of a sudden, when most of the votes are on Nerwen anyway?

I'd also like to ask Farael what he thinks he's picked up on me. All I've done is be more active.

[Nogrod]

My top suspects now are Rikae and Macalaure. It would also fit tp to make them wolves together... I know he's a romantic deep inside.

And even if I have stated my "case" against Mac in quite strong terms, were I forced to decide between the two now I would probably vote for Rikae.

The next ones on my list...

I'm not ready to drop Shasta either even if Spm has a point about him being a bit too comfortable lynch. I see where we could all be going wrong with him but I can't deny he acts suspiciously and it would be a disaster to let him win just because he talks and walks like a wolf but we don't believe it.

Nerwen is a hard one. There are things I think feel bad in her posting and there are ones that call to me that we would lose a bright and helpful villager if we lynched her.

Isabell also makes me wonder still. She seems to be on top of things quite nicely but still posts veery carefully without actually pointing at anywhere. A bit too carefully I'd say if you compare the sophistication of her arguments on "bluffing tools" and their general use...

If my count is right it's now:

Nogrod 2 (Mac, Spm)
Nerwen 2 (Kath, Valier)
Shasta 1 (Farael)
+ Boro voted and retracted on Kath

It means twelve votes to be cast (+retractions). We'd need one or two more candidates to make this effective. With four wolves having both their votes and their ability to PM during the Day this would be too easy for them.

Like Nerwen (sic) pointed out, we should check things and not only trust what others say - I think I have a few nice examples of that up there... So even if one or two or three agree with something don't go with the flow. The wolves really fooled the villagers to vote as they wished in the last game threesome and now there is four.



I'd suggest adding Rikae, Mac or / and Isabell there.

Or do you have better suggestions?

[mormegil]

I'm back and I have read to Boro's post 124 and it seems rather odd to me that he is blantantly causing, in my mind, a great deal of confusion. The whole seer point was brought up and I didn't really think he would be so obvious if he were a seer. Boro is an incredibly bold player who would definately play a bluff like this if he were a wolf hoping to smoke out the true seer, thinking the seer might be a bit rash and reveal him/herself prematurely. Of course, it could be that Boro is simply an innocent and is provoking reaction. I would think the latter to be true but with his quick vote of Kath, who hasn't acted overly strange to me, it adds a bit to the overall suspicion.

I will post more when I have read a bit more.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

He has thrown out a few crackpot theories, but that’s quite often the way on Day 1 when there’s not much to go on.

It is pretty standard on Day 1 for people to throw out mild suspicions in the opening skirmishes,

Okay, so Saucie, you are okay with crackpot theories and weak suspcions here, yet when it comes to this you feel a bit different.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Now, I rather agree with him that Farael’s ‘in your face’ approach is fairly standard for him, yet morm uses this to found a suspicion against him. How can this alone raise suspicion, when it’s his usual style?

I also find this quite strange:

Again, if I am not mistaken, this is Rikae’s standard approach. And morm is quite often the first to throw accusations around in the early stages to see what happens. I find it difficult to see why this should make her suspicious in his eyes.

So, I find morm’s cases against Farael and Rikae, both of whom appear to be acting pretty normally to me, to be rather weak and forced, and that worries me.

I threw out some weak suspcions because I was leaving shortly and didn't have much time and also, there wasn't much to go on and I have a tendancy, that is very well noted to suspect people like Farael and Rikae...just ask Lommy and Kath. If I remember correctly to SpM, you seem to usually suspect me for this type of behavior that I exhibit. I tend to not be overly logical on the first day or two because there isn't much of a point about it. I wonder why you suspect me for the same reasons you always suspect me and yet you question why I suspect others for the same reasons.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Is there no modfire, or have I just managed to miss it being stated somewhere?

It's maybe a bit early to say this, as tp will deal a blow only after the second non-voting/non-contributing, but could these blows be of any help to figure out if a certain person is innocent or not? Just thinking aloud, as it's really no use speculating on that at the moment- as long as we don't know what those blows will be like. And not that I would recommend non-participating to anyone just that we'd find out if s/he's innocent.

Yes they would help us but not in the way you are thinking Agan. Phantom will not hesitate to quickly dispatch those who do not participate, guilty or innocent. Likely it would be an innocent (simply based on ratio) if Azalia were mod fired therefore we would be down an ordo. It is not a good idea to tempt the phantom in any way...*whispers* he's a megalomaniac with a short temper.

[the phantom]

You have four hours till Day 1 ends

[Rikae]

Nogrod, I think you have accused Mac and I of plotting together in every single game.
As for your reply to me on Legate, I still don't understand why you reacted as though I was advocating lynching him simply by voicing a small suspicion. Maybe you thought I was, but it seemed to me it should have been obvious what I was doing (and you know my playing style by now in any event.) That's why I felt you were quashing the mention of suspicious activities on Legate's part (who, incidentally, seems to have been forgotten by everyone.)

Well, now that the stockings are filled, I really should vote and go to bed. I'm making a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty or nice...and to me,

++Shasta

...looks most deserving of coal in his stocking toDay, for reasons stated earlier.
Frohe Weihnachten, everybody, and be good, for goodness' sake!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

The "reasons stated earlier" being that I'm more active in this game, due to suggestions by people last game that I be more active.


'Kay then.

In the interest of saving my own skin (I really am tired of being unjustly executed Day 1; last game was a wonderful break, thanks to EggNogrod, but still):

++Nerwen

[mormegil]

++Boro

I really do believe he is playing a rather bold game, it's when he's at his best, and I've seen him before do things like this and get away with it. He is in the top 3 to 5 most bold players. What he has said doesn't add up to me and is the one who sticks out to me the most at this point.

[Boromir88]

This is interesting...I was going to come on, pop in and vote. But with roughly 40 minutes left...

Aganzir
Azaelia
Eomer
Isabellyka
Legate
Nerwen
Shasta

still have yet to vote. That's far too many, maybe I should hold my vote to see what happens here at the end.

Edit: Wow my math is really bad...there's still over an hour

[Nerwen]

Kath is looking very wolvish to me. In my last post I said:

On that note, what about the possibility that Boro and Kath are both wolves?

–And she voted me in her very next post, saying it was because of my post about the "Cursed Seer" early in the game, and because she didn't like my explanation. Now, I think those are extremely flimsy reasons to vote someone on. It looks to me more like a reaction to what I'd just said.

I thought Kath was most likely innocent before this, and I was basically just throwing that idea out to see what people thought, but now... did I pick her by accident?

Then there's Valier, who also voted me, giving very weak reasons. I don't know what to make of her; she's hardly posted at all.

The whole Mac-Nogrod-Boro-Rikae-whoever-else-is-in-it business– I don't know what's going on there, except that there's a wolf or two in there somewhere... I think I'll just leave that alone.

Okay, so my top suspects are now Kath, Morm and Shasta, the last two for reasons which I've already stated.

Since I may not be back before the deadline, and since there are three votes against me already, I'm voting

++Shasta.

I've been warning about bandwagons all along, I know, and this could be one– but the other two who have voted him are the people I think are least likely to be wolves at the moment. And I think he's been acting too wolfishly to be ignored.

[Macalaure]

I made it back for a short while. I know my approach right now concentrates too much on one person, but I don't have the time to look closely at everybody (Valier and Aganzir leave a slightly suspect feeling, but that's nothing remotely solid) and Nogrod keeps on looking worse with every post.

It's funny that he keeps defending himself mostly against that "elite" players accusation most of all. At least for me, that's the most minor part of my reasons to suspect him. It's also the easiest thing to defend oneself from, because what he said about it long ago was vague: vague enough to suspect him and vague enough for him to weasle himself out of.

He doesn't touch the the more solid and interesting points, because he can't win defending himself against them.

Originally Posted by Nog

When he came in to the game there were almost twenty posts made and what he did was to concentrate his whole post on me - not even mentioning another name there.

I explained this was because none of the others seemed suspicious. This was one of the things you cut out when you quoted, and that is why this statement of yours:

Originally Posted by Nog

Yes I cut your post as I tried to reveal what your post was all about.

is clearly not the truth. You seeked to misrepresent what I said, and continue to do so still, so that it suits your defense/offense better and more conveniently.

Originally Posted by Nog

So it's much a do about nothing. In the meantime it's a post that tries to make me look bad, intentionally and calmly. That's where I smell the rat. In the intent which leads to fabricating a post to paint someone black out of thin air.

It was very little ado about very little. It was you who made it sound like a huge accusation. And as SPM said it, it looked like the reaction of a cornered wolf.

Originally Posted by Nog

I know I'm an easy target on Day1

Hang on, what?

Originally Posted by Nog

(once they bandwaggoned me in bright daylight and got me lynched)

Was that in the game you were turned into a Fenris?

Originally Posted by Nog

But I play this game to get involved. That's the game to me.

It sometimes demands some self-defence before going to sleep as I also like to play this game and do not wish to die on Day1.

To win the game as a wolf? Post once, at most twice a Day in the beginning. Do not say anything that is not approved by the majority. If you attack, take a victim who is easy to lynch (someone who involves her/himself and thence gets talked about). Always look you're nice towards most of the village as people are prone to vote for someone who has voiced a concern towardfs themselves...

Now this is plain ridiculous. Silent players win as silent wolves. Wordy players win as wordy wolves. Bold players win as bold wolves.

You know, nobody wants to be lynched and really nobody wants to be lynched on Day 1. But I've never seen an innocent try to escape it by simply trying to give everybody who might vote for him a bad conscience because they'd be lynching a player who soo easy to lynch, and soo involved, and soo unlike a (fabricated and unapplicable) stereotype of a wolf.


Please, all of you, there are still a lot of votes left, there have to be some who agree with me about Nogrod. He's clearly a wolf!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm back!

A few words. Somehow, I am concerned by the current vote list. Unless I am mistaken, Nerwen is in the lead now. Well, personally I consider her behavior quite normal and the reasons to vote her are not quite well ("confused theories" from Kath, "references to other games" by Valier, some sort of self-defence from Shasta or what?). It is probably of no reason to split votes now. Yet funnily enough, I find all three of the votes for Nerwen quite strange and I would even prefer voting Kath or Valier over Shasta - but he is the only one who has some votes. Shasta is, as I said, behaving very odd, yet maybe this really is the new playing style. On the other hand, both the reasons of Kath and Valier are quite feeble.

Whatever, but I would probably like to focus my today's vote elsewhere to see how Shasta behaves in the future and if on Day 2 there are some more things to ponder.

A few words on Boro who appeared only after I left the last time. Going through his posts, he is reasonable player as I know he is, but there is this but. For example his speech about Nogrod based on Nog saying "us" makes no sense to me. This, in my opinion, is no reasoning and people do that normally. It could be taken as joke unless Boro continued his suspicion on Nogrod seriously in his post, thus this being one of the arguments.
I don't think Farael's argument about "pseudo-Seer behaviour" is applicable, but what I just say seems really wolfy to me.

I don't know if I'm going to vote for him, but he is quite high on my list.

These were the main things now. I will look at other things and choose my vote. Till later.

EDIT: x-ed with Boro, Nerwen and Mac

[Nerwen]

That's all very well, Mac, but I read your first post on Nogrod, and it looks very thin indeed to me. But then his reaction does seem a bit paranoid... However, I don't see enough evidence to warrant voting him (or you, on the other hand).

As I said, I'm keeping out of that one. I just don't want to get involved in a possible bandwagon.
EDIT: X'd with Legate.

[Aganzir]

Nogrod 2 (Mac, Spm)
Nerwen 3 (Kath, Valier, Shasta)
Shasta 3 (Farael, Rikae, Nerwen)
Boro 1 (morm)
+ Boro voted and retracted on Kath

I think I'd be happy voting for Mac, but I'm not sure if it's wise to bring in yet another lynch candidate. At the moment it's Shasta who's leading, he recieved his third vote after Nerwen.

Of those who have some votes already, I'd prefer Shasta or Noggie. I have a feeling there's something evil going on there.

[Nerwen]

And now I have to go.

Merry Christmas, everyone.