Film Rights to First & Second Age

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

This is not a question of one party having all the rights and the other party having none. Clearly, both parties have rights that can be said to interlock and overlap.
I would think it incumbent on both parties to sit down and attempt some mutual satisfactory understanding of both of their respective set of rights.

Why is it 'incumbent'? As far as I'm aware the only person arguing, or even suggesting, this is yourself.

Are any actual, Primary world, lawyers currently employed to fight this one out? Has anyone, either on Zaentz's or the Tolkien Estate's side even suggested there is any conflict over who has the right to what?

It seems to me that, outside of your own little Secondary world, where this supposed legal battle seems to have taken on the epic dimensions of the Dagor Dagorath, this is pretty much academic, because Zaentz seems totally uninterested in claiming the material.

[Sauron the White]

Given that today was the official announcement of the next two Middle Earth movies, and given that there will be material used in these films that has been and will be debated about, yes, I do think it is incumbent on both parties to work this out in a rational fashion.

Or perhaps one party would much rather simply go ahead and do as they please and the other party will then carp and complain about how they should not have done it. But both parties will stay far away from either a negotiating table or a courtroom so they can both maintain the rightness of thier respective positions. And their respective supporters around the world can continue the same discussions without any resolution.

And both can be comfortable in that knowing that the other side is just as much afraid of a final answer.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Perhaps, Sauron, it would help if you clarified what remedy for this percieved violation of Zaentz' rights is appropriate.

I may be wrong, but I think you'll suggest that Zaentz or his licensee have the right to make use of anything and everything in the Middle-earth canon, because they somehow aquired rights in it all simply by buying rights to the Appendices.

The answer is the selling of the rights by JRRT and the eventual publishing of much of that same material by CT years later. Both give the holders a legal claim

No, they don't. UA purchased the rights to make films based on what appears between the covers of LR. The existence of the Silmarillion at that time, or its hypothetical publication by JRRT himself before or after the UA deal, or its eventual publication by CRT, do not alter those rights one jot or tittle.

[Sauron the White]

WCH - when two parties both believe that they have some claim to the same property, they can do several things including
a- continue to insist they are right and ignore the other party hoping they are of like mind
b- attack the other party and fight it out any way you have to
c- sit down like intelligent and reasonable people and work it out

Given that these movies are announced and soon to be reality, I strongly favor option c. The announcement of these two films with intended use of material above and beyond the storyline of HOBBIT or LOTR makes this a very real matter.

[Sauron the White]

from davem

What is to be worked out? This dispute is all going on in your head. Do you have any evidence at all that either side is arguing over this?

Yesterday, you could have been correct. But today things have changed making this matter one of reality.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

WCH - when two parties both believe that they have some claim to the same property,

THIS ARGUMENT IS NOT HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF YOUR FEVERED IMAGINATION.

YOU URGENTLY REQUIRE A NICE CUP OF TEA & A SIT DOWN.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Great. I believe I have an ownership claim to the White House. Therefore I can

a- continue to insist I am right and ignore the US Government hoping they are of like mind
b- attack the Government and fight it out any way I have to
c- sit down like intelligent and reasonable people and work it out

Please!


Why on earth should the Estate negotiate a compromise over rights which are indisputably theirs? Zaentz/New Line have no claim outside the covers of The Lord of the Rings. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

[Sauron the White]

White House??? NO - this is this. This is not something else.

I truly hope and pray that the next few years of news regarding these movies falls on the deaf ears of both davem and WHC. I would hate to read here how rumored inclusion of certain events in those movies are risking lawsuit because the film companies "does not own those rights" or they are "going beyond what they own". And I never, ever want to hear from the so called Tolkien scholarly community, doing shadow work for their friends in the Estate, about how the upcoming movies are a travesty and went beyond their scope.

Fat chance.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The only 'rumor' currently in play is that PJ will make one movie covering The Hobbit, and another movie covering the next sixty years until Bilbo's farewell party.

The only material concerning this period is found in the Appendices,* indeed virtually all of it in Appendix B. If PJ wants to construct a bogus screenplay about Young Aragorn, so be it.

*There is the brief conversation between Gandalf and Saruman in UT. And, no, PJ can't use it.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And I never, ever want to hear from the so called Tolkien scholarly community, doing shadow work for their friends in the Estate, about how the upcoming movies are a travesty

Incidentally, that's a scurrilous accusation and probably merits an apology.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

And I never, ever want to hear from the so called Tolkien scholarly community, doing shadow work for their friends in the Estate, about how the upcoming movies are a travesty and went beyond their scope.

Fat chance.

Exactly - because New Line & Jackson know what their limitations are regarding what material they can & cannot use. If they choose to make a movie within those restrictions & mess up, it will be their fault. NL & Jackson are not victims here. If they want to avoid the kind of criticisms you're talking about they can adapt other some writer's work - or come up with something original.


Plus, I do have to point out (again) that Jackson et al do not actually care what Tolkien wrote, & are prepared to alter & invent whatever nonsense they like to replace Tolkien's carefully & lovingly created work. If they had access to all of Tolkien's M-e writings it would not change anything - they will do what they want. And I think you'd find a much more antagonistic response from 'purists' if they did have access to all Tolkien's material & did what they did with LotR all over it....

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Given that today was the official announcement of the next two Middle Earth movies, and given that there will be material used in these films that has been and will be debated about, yes, I do think it is incumbent on both parties to work this out in a rational fashion.

What is to be worked out? This dispute is all going on in your head. Do you have any evidence at all that either side is arguing over this?