Film Rights to First & Second Age

[Sauron the White]

from WCH

Again- your argument boils down to a claim that since Zaentz has a claim on the Appendix synopsis, he effectively has a right to protect whatever value that claim might have from 'diminishment' by the original author writing futher about his own fictional world! Nonsense.

Why do you, an otherwise intelligent person, persist in deliberately twisting and misstating my words? Where did I say that the author - JRRT - should or could be restrained or stopped from writing about his own fictional world.

Please.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

That's exactly what you're saying. Disguised perhaps by an assertion that it's Christopher as if that made a shred of difference, legally.

You're objecting that Zaentz' rights are somehow 'diminished' because Tolkien-and-his-Estate had the audacity to publish additional material which was referenced in the Appendices. In other words, you're arguing that Zaentz has a 'right' to prevent that diminishment- which leads inevitably to some claim of a veto.

The alternative is equally preposterous- that Zaentz somehow has unfettered rights to the Silmarillion simply because the briefest precis of some of its content appeared in the LR.

Or what alternative remedy for this nonexistent problem have I overlooked?

[Sauron the White]

William .. the use of the strawman does not serve you well. Where in any of my posts on this subject do I state that Christopher should have been stopped, restrained, restricted, or otherwise prohibited from publishing THE SILMARALLION?

In fact, I said the direct opposite. I stated that I was glad he did so.

here it is for your benefit

please understand that I am not finding any fault or error with Christopher putting together the SIL or finding a publisher for it. I am very glad that he did it.

How can you construe that to constitute advocacy of prevention of publishing?

Where did I say that I supported any effort by Saul Zaentz to do the same?

I have stated before and will restate again in slightly different terms so perhaps we can better understand each other.

If lawyers for the Estate were asked to write down the rights regarding the Silmarallion or other material touched upon in the Appendicies, what do you think they would have to say about that?

And now lets put the same shoe on the other foot. If lawyers for Zaentz were asked to do exactly the same thing regarding their rights, what do you think they would have to say about that?

I do not need an answer.

What I would like is an admission that there is a high probability that those two lists would NOT BE THE SAME. I would speculate that the Estate would claim the film rights owned are far more limited than Zaentz would claim. And I speculate that the rights claimed by Zaentz would be much broader than those that would be conceded by the Estate.

Why would this be so? And this directly leads into the discussion here over and over again as to why we - who have no vested financial interest in either one - cannot agree about who owns what and what they can do with it.

The answer is the selling of the rights by JRRT and the eventual publishing of much of that same material by CT years later. Both give the holders a legal claim.

Right now, today even, minds other than ours are trying to comb these materials to see what they will use in two upcoming movies about Middle-earth. And I am willing to speculate that a few years down the road their will be more heated debate about who did what and what rights were violated.

This is not a question of one party having all the rights and the other party having none. Clearly, both parties have rights that can be said to interlock and overlap.
I would think it incumbent on both parties to sit down and attempt some mutual satisfactory understanding of both of their respective set of rights.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

This is not a question of one party having all the rights and the other party having none. Clearly, both parties have rights that can be said to interlock and overlap.
I would think it incumbent on both parties to sit down and attempt some mutual satisfactory understanding of both of their respective set of rights.

Why is it 'incumbent'? As far as I'm aware the only person arguing, or even suggesting, this is yourself.

Are any actual, Primary world, lawyers currently employed to fight this one out? Has anyone, either on Zaentz's or the Tolkien Estate's side even suggested there is any conflict over who has the right to what?

It seems to me that, outside of your own little Secondary world, where this supposed legal battle seems to have taken on the epic dimensions of the Dagor Dagorath, this is pretty much academic, because Zaentz seems totally uninterested in claiming the material.

[Sauron the White]

Given that today was the official announcement of the next two Middle Earth movies, and given that there will be material used in these films that has been and will be debated about, yes, I do think it is incumbent on both parties to work this out in a rational fashion.

Or perhaps one party would much rather simply go ahead and do as they please and the other party will then carp and complain about how they should not have done it. But both parties will stay far away from either a negotiating table or a courtroom so they can both maintain the rightness of thier respective positions. And their respective supporters around the world can continue the same discussions without any resolution.

And both can be comfortable in that knowing that the other side is just as much afraid of a final answer.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Perhaps, Sauron, it would help if you clarified what remedy for this percieved violation of Zaentz' rights is appropriate.

I may be wrong, but I think you'll suggest that Zaentz or his licensee have the right to make use of anything and everything in the Middle-earth canon, because they somehow aquired rights in it all simply by buying rights to the Appendices.

The answer is the selling of the rights by JRRT and the eventual publishing of much of that same material by CT years later. Both give the holders a legal claim

No, they don't. UA purchased the rights to make films based on what appears between the covers of LR. The existence of the Silmarillion at that time, or its hypothetical publication by JRRT himself before or after the UA deal, or its eventual publication by CRT, do not alter those rights one jot or tittle.

[Sauron the White]

WCH - when two parties both believe that they have some claim to the same property, they can do several things including
a- continue to insist they are right and ignore the other party hoping they are of like mind
b- attack the other party and fight it out any way you have to
c- sit down like intelligent and reasonable people and work it out

Given that these movies are announced and soon to be reality, I strongly favor option c. The announcement of these two films with intended use of material above and beyond the storyline of HOBBIT or LOTR makes this a very real matter.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Given that today was the official announcement of the next two Middle Earth movies, and given that there will be material used in these films that has been and will be debated about, yes, I do think it is incumbent on both parties to work this out in a rational fashion.

What is to be worked out? This dispute is all going on in your head. Do you have any evidence at all that either side is arguing over this?