Sam or Frodo - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eönwë · 12-11-2007, 12:40 PM

Yes, and Sam even used it to help him see in the dark and fight orcs, so wouldn't Sauron notice the disturbance?

Or maybe Sam has control and power over the ring we are not told about...

The Might · 12-11-2007, 01:06 PM

Indeed strange.
I first thought it might be Aragorn that Sauron was searching for at that time, but on the day Sam put the Ring on Aragorn was only in Pelargir and had defeated the corsairs. It was only some time later that he openly challenged Sauron, so that theory is pretty weak.
Not sure why he was so arrogant and wouldn't think that anyone would dare enter Mordor after feeling that.

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-11-2007, 04:54 PM

Might: Aragorn openly challenged Sauron at the Hornburg, before he ever reached Dunharrow or entered the Paths of the Dead.

Sauron's 'arrogance,' as you say, was a key point Tolkien was making. Sauron cannot imagine what it is to be 'good;' in other words, he cannot imagine that anyone who possessed the Ultimate Weapon would do anything other than he would himself: use it. The idea that anyone would consider actually destroying it was a concept he was incapable of formulating (he also knew nobody *could* destroy it).

The Ring (contrary to the movies) was not some sort of Locator Beacon the moment someone put it on. The near-miss on Amon Hen is somehow to be associated with the peculiar power of that place- and of course at the Sammath Naur Frodo was openly claiming the Ring, at the zenith of its power.

Folwren · 12-11-2007, 08:12 PM

In actual fact....I do not believe that Sam or Frodo ever put the Ring on while actually in Mordor. I just read that part in the book, and he took it off as he entered... If he had it on at all, he put it on before entering Mordor proper and took it off after a couple steps within.

As for who was more resiliant? I don't know. Sam was childish and pure and perfectly simple. Frodo, on the otherhand, was not so childish. He had proper learning and higher, more elvish thoughts. They were both of them strong in their different ways. Sam was strong because there was not as much reason to be powerful or to rule...he had no wish to. Frodo was strong in another way...a more knowledgeable way, if that makes any sense.

I think, though, that Frodo was more cut out for the task than Sam was, and that was why Frodo got the job of carrying it to Mount Doom, and Sam got the job of taking care of Frodo on the way there.

-- Folwren

Galadriel55 · 02-20-2011, 08:25 PM

I think you hit the nail on the head with your Frodo-vs-Sam-theory, Foley! I absolutely agree.

As for why didn't Sauron becoe alert as soon as Sam put on the Ring, it happened at the same time as the battle on Pelennor fields. I think he'd pay more attention to the battle than to some knee-jerk thingy.

narfforc · 02-21-2011, 04:20 AM

When The Witch-king led his troops out of Minas Morgul, he stopped for a moment sensing another power in his vale, this was of course missed in the film due to moving him from horse to winged beast. He was more sensitive to the presence of the ring than the other nazgul, and at this point a whole lot closer. Sauron's mind was elsewhere, directing all his minions and thinking about which of the wise had found the ring, he knew of Gandalf, Denethor and had only just been notified of the existance of Isildur's Heir, he was not above doubt. He could not think for one minute that anyone would destroy such a powerful weapon, what would anyone be doing in Mordor, he believed it was impregnable. If one of the wise had put the ring on in Mordor I think Sauron would have sensed that, but the ring only gave power by stature (not size), Frodo was no ordinary hobbit, he was wise and learned, the ring held more danger for him than Sam. I think that so little energy was given off by the ring when Sam wore it outside or inside Mordor, that it would probably go unnoticed unless in the direct gaze of The Eye.

The Sixth Wizard · 03-03-2011, 08:52 PM

In terms of the story, you'd have to say that Sam and Frodo represent two different aspects of the "good" world which they fight to protect.

Sam is exemplary of the innocence, innate courage and kind-heartedness of those simple people of the Shire - it is his destiny to return and live a long, happy life, with fourteen lovely children. His role in the story is to illustrate that those who are pure, no matter how small or how simple (Sam isn't really that intelligent) are capable of standing up against evil. Tolkien says things like "even the smallest can achieve great things". Sam is never capable of the great deeds of Aragorn, Gandalf and Frodo himself - he fails to protect his master in the face of Shelob and Gollum, and he is easily outwitted and outmatched, but of course he doesn't fall prey to the temptation of the ring. In the end it is Sam's strength and purity of heart which allows Frodo to literally "climb the mountain" - perhaps Tolkien is trying to say that even the greatest achievements are always built on the dedication, literally on the backs of the smallest of us. While Smeagol and Frodo were pryers, looking for the secrets of the world, I think Sam was the more resistant to the Ring's powers because, as he says when he is tempted, he knows, deep down, that he could never be the Lord of the Ring. He is too humble and too simple for that. The Ring would consume him, given enough time, but it would have to destroy him first.

12-11-2007, 12:40 PM	#1
Eönwë Flame Imperishable Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Right here Posts: 3,928	Yes, and Sam even used it to help him see in the dark and fight orcs, so wouldn't Sauron notice the disturbance? Or maybe Sam has control and power over the ring we are not told about... __________________ Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place Last edited by Eönwë; 12-11-2007 at 01:02 PM.

12-11-2007, 01:06 PM	#2
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Indeed strange. I first thought it might be Aragorn that Sauron was searching for at that time, but on the day Sam put the Ring on Aragorn was only in Pelargir and had defeated the corsairs. It was only some time later that he openly challenged Sauron, so that theory is pretty weak. Not sure why he was so arrogant and wouldn't think that anyone would dare enter Mordor after feeling that. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

12-11-2007, 04:54 PM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Might: Aragorn openly challenged Sauron at the Hornburg, before he ever reached Dunharrow or entered the Paths of the Dead. Sauron's 'arrogance,' as you say, was a key point Tolkien was making. Sauron cannot imagine what it is to be 'good;' in other words, he cannot imagine that anyone who possessed the Ultimate Weapon would do anything other than he would himself: use it. The idea that anyone would consider actually destroying it was a concept he was incapable of formulating (he also knew nobody could destroy it). The Ring (contrary to the movies) was not some sort of Locator Beacon the moment someone put it on. The near-miss on Amon Hen is somehow to be associated with the peculiar power of that place- and of course at the Sammath Naur Frodo was openly claiming the Ring, at the zenith of its power. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

12-11-2007, 08:12 PM	#4
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	In actual fact....I do not believe that Sam or Frodo ever put the Ring on while actually in Mordor. I just read that part in the book, and he took it off as he entered... If he had it on at all, he put it on before entering Mordor proper and took it off after a couple steps within. As for who was more resiliant? I don't know. Sam was childish and pure and perfectly simple. Frodo, on the otherhand, was not so childish. He had proper learning and higher, more elvish thoughts. They were both of them strong in their different ways. Sam was strong because there was not as much reason to be powerful or to rule...he had no wish to. Frodo was strong in another way...a more knowledgeable way, if that makes any sense. I think, though, that Frodo was more cut out for the task than Sam was, and that was why Frodo got the job of carrying it to Mount Doom, and Sam got the job of taking care of Frodo on the way there. -- Folwren __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

02-20-2011, 08:25 PM	#5
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,493	I think you hit the nail on the head with your Frodo-vs-Sam-theory, Foley! I absolutely agree. As for why didn't Sauron becoe alert as soon as Sam put on the Ring, it happened at the same time as the battle on Pelennor fields. I think he'd pay more attention to the battle than to some knee-jerk thingy. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

02-21-2011, 04:20 AM	#6
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	When The Witch-king led his troops out of Minas Morgul, he stopped for a moment sensing another power in his vale, this was of course missed in the film due to moving him from horse to winged beast. He was more sensitive to the presence of the ring than the other nazgul, and at this point a whole lot closer. Sauron's mind was elsewhere, directing all his minions and thinking about which of the wise had found the ring, he knew of Gandalf, Denethor and had only just been notified of the existance of Isildur's Heir, he was not above doubt. He could not think for one minute that anyone would destroy such a powerful weapon, what would anyone be doing in Mordor, he believed it was impregnable. If one of the wise had put the ring on in Mordor I think Sauron would have sensed that, but the ring only gave power by stature (not size), Frodo was no ordinary hobbit, he was wise and learned, the ring held more danger for him than Sam. I think that so little energy was given off by the ring when Sam wore it outside or inside Mordor, that it would probably go unnoticed unless in the direct gaze of The Eye. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 02-21-2011 at 04:23 AM.

03-03-2011, 08:52 PM	#7
The Sixth Wizard Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stuck under a rock in Valinor with Ar-Pharazon. Posts: 480	On Samwise In terms of the story, you'd have to say that Sam and Frodo represent two different aspects of the "good" world which they fight to protect. Sam is exemplary of the innocence, innate courage and kind-heartedness of those simple people of the Shire - it is his destiny to return and live a long, happy life, with fourteen lovely children. His role in the story is to illustrate that those who are pure, no matter how small or how simple (Sam isn't really that intelligent) are capable of standing up against evil. Tolkien says things like "even the smallest can achieve great things". Sam is never capable of the great deeds of Aragorn, Gandalf and Frodo himself - he fails to protect his master in the face of Shelob and Gollum, and he is easily outwitted and outmatched, but of course he doesn't fall prey to the temptation of the ring. In the end it is Sam's strength and purity of heart which allows Frodo to literally "climb the mountain" - perhaps Tolkien is trying to say that even the greatest achievements are always built on the dedication, literally on the backs of the smallest of us. While Smeagol and Frodo were pryers, looking for the secrets of the world, I think Sam was the more resistant to the Ring's powers because, as he says when he is tempted, he knows, deep down, that he could never be the Lord of the Ring. He is too humble and too simple for that. The Ring would consume him, given enough time, but it would have to destroy him first.