The Ultimate Discourse About Gildor

[lindil]

In http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2021 I posted {what seems to apply as well then as now} this:

Well I, surprisingly got to the end of this thread w/ no one expressing what to me seemed the obvious. I thought for sure I would be pre-empted. but then again maybe I am just plain wrong!

my 2 cents;

Gildor searched his heart as to what he should do for Frodo and did it.

Just because you can help someone is it always right? Gildor clearly sensed something big was afoot and he hesitated to set anything in motion that was not meant to be.

Gildor knew that the Dunedain kept watch {aragorn was almost certainly one of those warned by Gildor's highly effective communications network.
All told we know it reached Aragorn, Bombadil and Rivendell, not bad for a slacking, racist wimp.


No I think Gildor Inglorion was practicing what the taoists call Wu-Wei. Acting w/out self-interest. I believe although puzzled and alarmed by the situation he weighed his possible responses in his heart and saw that it was not his or his companies part to escort them further.


But let us look at what the brief meeting did accomplish.

*The ring saved from immediate peril.
*Hobbits greatly heartend and [ Frodo and Sam at least] greatly enlightened.
*Frodo was pronounced an 'Elf-Friend' before he even left the Shire [ I believe the Elf-Friend title also had a certain blessing that went w/ it. like Faramir's staff.

*He also asked that Elbereth's Stars shine upon his road [which they undoubtedly did].

*set them up w/ food better than anything we will probably ever eat - vegetarian too if I recall.

*gave Frodo counsel to take friends [ the counsel of which helped sway him when the conspiracy was unmasked].

*Implemented the emergency contact system along the old Arthedain/Cardolan border.

not bad in my book. Actually the Gildor and co. scene has always been along w/ lothlorien my favorite in the book. I always come away so inspired I can not imagine Gildor being anything other than perfectly in-tune.


So, again Gildor did exactly what he needed to do. Just like Elrond [ a more common lightening rod for the ' he/Rivendell did not help enough' question] did not go to Mordor himself. Gildor and Elrond where wise enough to be where they were most needed and mature enough to do their part and no more, no less.

btw 'house of Inglorion' almost certainly means not 'a son of' [ in which case he proably would have been King after Gil-Galad] but 'of the household of'.

And possibly a generation or 2 removed at that. Still as Finrod was one of the noblest [ The noblest in my book] of the Noldorin princes, even being his butler would have been a good job.

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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[Galin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, the name Gildor is Sindarin, but that doesn't make any difference. His second name still means "son or descendant of Inglor". So either it's a different Inglor, or this is an unusually broad use of the patronymic. Or maybe he was adopted?

Right, I agree that's what it means. I mean the whole name is Sindarin, and the point I was making is that the explanation above is in a Quenya context. In other words, is -ion also a genitive in Sindarin?

Technically the genitive in Sindarin wasn't really addressed, even though it would not change my mind about Inglorion.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, off the top of my head I can think of 3 Sindarin/Noldorin examples

Ereinion 'descendant of kings'
Eldarion 'descendant of Elves' (might be Quenya)
Arathornion 'son of Arathorn'

However, these date from the late or post-LR period. When did Noldorin abandon the go-, bo- prefix as a patronymic?

[Galin]

I would say Eldarion is Quenya and might contain a patronymic.

Instead of Eldar-ion with a plural 'Elves' I think (not sure) it's possible we might have Elda-ri(g)-on with *rig- 'crown' plus a masculine, as similarly, perhaps, in Telperion, or more certainly the element 'crown' in Sindarin Galadriel 'Maiden crowned with gleaming hair'

On the other matter, good question. I can say without much delving (being lazy) that at the time Etymologies was being constructed go- was said to be used for patronymics in Ilkorin (go-Thingol).

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

Right, I agree that's what it means. I mean the whole name is Sindarin, and the point I was making is that the explanation above is in a Quenya context. In other words, is -ion also a genitive in Sindarin?

No, Sindarin doesn't have genitive endings– it uses word-order and prepositions instead. Theoretically, "Inglorion" could just be a descriptive name or title, c.f. "Thalion"– except that as far as I'm aware it doesn't mean anything.

(I think "Inglor" is in fact meant to be a Sindarin adaption of a Quenya name.)

So I guess we're still left with Inglorion = "son or descendant of Inglor". Perhaps it's meant in a non-literal way?

By the way, "Eldarion" is definitely Quenya.

[Galin]

Etymologies aside, I think Inglor (Q. Ingalaure) means *Gold of the Ingar or (long version) 'the one with golden hair like that of the Ingar'. The Ingar being the folk of Ingwe, 'The Foremost' (Vinyar Tengwar 34)

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Edit: 'Gold of the Ingar' is based on texts in Morgoth's Ring however, as distinct from a look at Inglor at the time JRRT wrote the chapter where Gildor appears. On the name change, from the 'new' texts in Parma Eldalamberon 17:

'Certainly Finrod must become name of Felagund instead of Inglor, NOT of his father since 'Finrod' never left Valinor and could not have a 'Sindarized' name.' JRRT

JRRT then notes that the names of Finwe's sons were Kurufinwe, Nolofinwe and (Sara-,) Arafinwe -- adding that the mother-name of Arafinwe was Ingalaure (because his hair was golden, even more golden than the Vanyar). It is further noted that as originally written the mother-names of Arafinwe were 'Laurin or Ingalaur' the latter changed to Ingwelaure -- altered to Ingalaure. For an earlier reference to Inglor in Etymologies see root ID- *ídí 'heart, desire, wish' and etc.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Ceratinly in 1938 there was no problem with a Noldo having a Noldorin name!

I do note that the feminine patronymic -iel (Q. -ielle) came to have a general and very common meaning 'maiden'

I also could swear, but I can't find it, that in early drafts of the Lorien material Legolas is referred to as go-Thranduil. Of course, at the time both Leggy and the Galadhrim were conceived as being Ilkorins, so that doesn't help a lot.