Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath

[cesar.ewok]

I wonder if you guys see a problem if I paste this thread in another community. May I?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

As long as you reference the original (perhaps by linking to this thread or at least providing the "coordinates") I see no problem.

[Galin]

If the myth as it was found in HME V was to survive in any way, I think Christopher Tolkien concluded, in any case, that it was not to be thought of as coming from Mandos.

'Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to sadness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.' JRRT

The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255).' CJRT

It is to be noted that JRR Tolkien never did a substantial rewrite of the end of the Quenta Silmarillion of the 1930s, specifically the passage in question. Later Tolkien did make cursory corrections to the (now) 'old version', however. Christopher warns that these revisions need not imply 'any sort of final approval of the content' (see his reasons in HME XI, The Later Quenta Silmarillion). In any case, these revisions include:

'Turin Turambar... coming from the halls of Mandos' (changed to) 'Turin Turambar... returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world'. (as noted by Mr. Hicklin already). In the margin JRRT wrote 'and Beren Camlost' without direction for its insertion. 'and she will break them [The Silmarils] and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees' emended to 'and he [Feanor] will break them and with their fire will rekindle the Two Trees.'

Aprroximately against the last two sentences of the paragraph (from 'In that light the Gods will grow young again...') Tolkien put a large X in the margin of the manuscript. There is also the introduction of a further subheading The Second Prophecy of Mandos.

Hmmm, did Tolkien abandon the Second Prophecy or not? With respect to Turin dealing Morgoth his death blow we find (in HME XII) a prophecy concerning Turin from Andreth the Wise-woman rather -- and here Turin will return at the 'Last Battle' at the end of the Elder Days and before he leaves the Circles of the World forever will deal Ancalagon his death-stroke (noting that it had earlier been Earendil, as was taken up into the constructed Silmarillion of course).

This idea dates from 1968 or later: Turin is no longer named 'among the gods' (1930), no longer given a place among the 'sons of the Valar' (1937) and is seemingly coming back to slay Ancalagon rather than Morgoth (according to prophecy anyway), and during the War of Wrath. Author's Note 7 to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth (in Morgoth's Ring) is interesting:

'It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin*; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition.' JRRT

*note 19 '... in so far as this reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V. 333,... ) the Prophecy of Mandos.' CJRT

The Athrabeth itself probably dates to the late 1950s so this note is quite important in my opinion. Again, to note the Valaquenta here: 'if any change will come and the Marring be amended ... it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos' -- and the new prophecy of the 1960s regarding Turin indeed does not come from Mandos in any event, but from a mortal woman.

Only a part of a complicated subject in any case!

[cesar.ewok]

Ok, I'm a little confused now.

So Dagor Dagorath became the War of the Wrath, in which Túrin returns incarnated, and with his black sword slays Ancalagon? And the Armageddon is what is told in the account of QS? Then Túrin is supposed to come back in the War of the Wrath, die again, return again at the end of the days, and slay Morgoth?? And the Armageddon prophecy was not declared by Mandos??

I'm baffled.

[Findegil]

No, the Dagor Dagorath remind ever what you called Armageddon and the Old-Norse mythologie Ragnarök.

What changed was only the time of Túrins resurection. At least Andreth said he would not come into the War of Warth to slay Ancalgon.

The Second Prophecy of Mandos was never changed by Tolkien, but that must not mean that it was still valid. But it is also never said that Andreth sayings were ever true. We are dealing with (invented) prophecies and not with any (how much ever blured) account of (invented) history.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Galin]

It is confusing

If one were to collect all references to some sort of 'Last Battle' or World End tale or belief it would make for quite the post I would think. Anyway, what I'm trying to suggest above (at least) is that if the 'content' of the Second Prophecy (meaning only the 'latest' version on paper that we have) were cast as Mannish in origin (as seemingly according to note 7) then it is perhaps no longer The Second Prophecy of Mandos in that it is no longer another prophecy from Mandos specifically. Or, if 'put into the mouth of one of the Powers', put there by Men (raising the question of its true origin as a saying).

That's just one possible way of looking at it (I think), especially if one emphasizes note 7, which in my opinion could 'fit' well enough with the conclusion of the Valaquenta (which CJRT used to conclude the Quenta Silmarillion proper instead of the Second Prophecy). The late note on Turin coming back at the end of the Elder Days doesn't necessarily 'fit' with the Second Prophecy -- but one thing I note about it (despite how one interprets its meaning with respect to the question as a whole) is that it is not a foretelling of Mandos (one of the Powers) in any case.

If we narrow the consideration (arbitrary yes) we have:

A) the conclusion to the Valaquenta: Mandos does not declare something about the marring of Arda being amended.

B) Note 7: the Prophecy is Mannish not from Mandos (or arguably distancing him even if 'Men say' the Vala himself delivered the prophecy)

C) The prophecy of Turin is given by a mortal women (not Mandos).

So this could be said to be a 'common element' despite what C may or may not say about the issue as a whole. The late prophecy (C), if indeed Christopher is correct, refers to the War of Wrath rather...

... but what it means just by existing as a text (considering Turin's 'earlier' role in the Second Prophecy) is another question. And there are considerations of other references to World End battles or World End traditions (including when each was written) that get tossed into the larger mix of course. I'm not going into that complicated business, but am rather trying to note a possible 'general trend' away from Mandos if any 'prophecy' is going to be given.

That is, at least with respect to some texts anyway, so the force of this is diminished -- as I can't really say, for example, that the cursory corrections to the end of the QS proper are necessarily 'removed from Mandos' especially considering the further subheading The Second Prophecy of Mandos.

Oh well

[zxcvbn]

There's one more thing against the canonicity of Dagor Dagorath.

It is to be noted that the published Silmarillion contradicts the Second Prophecy in places. Whereas the Second Prophecy explicitly states that the Elves and Valar shall be renewed after Dagor Dagorath and that the fate of Men is unknown, The Silmarillion states that Men will participate in singing the Second Music, and that it is the fate of the Elves that is unknown, and nothing is said of the fate of the Valar