Who, in The Lord of the Rings, was the most effective liar?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Ah, I see that a name is omitted from this list. Surely the most effective liar in Lord of the Rings is the author himself.

Strange, Bethberry, but when I first read the question, this was also the first thought that leapt to my mind.

Clever, and your point is well taken; however, the question is asked of those "IN" LotR whereas the author stands outside it. So it is not, technically, an omission.

Littlemanpoet,

On one level, what you are saying is obviously correct. But there is another way to view things. By the rules set up by JRRT, the writer(s) of the Redbook implicitly lie within the story. Moreover, you have several overall narrators of the Legendarium, who were introduced earlier at different points. These historical/mythical narrators technically fall within Middle-earth. In effect, there is a widening circle of narrators, who have one or more feet inside the tale. At what point, do these concentric rings stop? At what point does history become myth (and vice versa)? Does that circle extend far enough to take in Tolkien and, in effect, make him the biggest and most effective liar of all?

On the other hand, if you look at some of the language of certain Letters, Tolkien did feel that he was writing something that already existed as truth on some level. He was not lying or inventing. He was telling the truth about something that he was fortunate enough to be able to get a glimse of. That may be why his story rings so true to those of us who aren't so fortunate to possess that ability to "see" things on that level.

This wasn't what the original question you raised. But on some level, it's fascinating to ask how the author stands in relation to truth and not truth. Either he is an enormously effective liar or the conveyor of some fundamental truths that the rest of us can't see as well as he did.

On a practical basis, however, my vote goes to Sauron.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

This wasn't what the original question you raised. But on some level, it's fascinating to ask how the author stands in relation to truth and not truth. Either he is an enormously effective liar or the conveyor of some fundamental truths that the rest of us can't see as well as he did.

Well, there is no better time to post this conversation between Tolkien and Lewis:

Originally Posted by "He has been inside his language, Part Four, JRR Tolkien: A Biograph, by Humphrey Carpenter

- But, said Lewis, myths are lies, even though lies breathed through silver.

- No, said Tolkien, they are not.

And, indicating the great trees of Magdalen Grove as their branches bent in the wind, he struck out a different line of argument.

- You call a tree a tree, he said, and you think nothing more of the word. But it was not a ‘tree’ until someone gave it that name. You call a star a star, and say it is just a ball of matter moving on a mathematical course. But that is merely how you see it. By so naming things and describing them you are only inventing your own terms about them. And just as speech is invention about objects and ideas, so myth is invention about truth.

We have come from God (continued Tolkien), and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming a ‘sub-creator’ and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic ‘progress’ leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil.

I find this view of myths/myths making as one of Tolkien's most profound ideas... and one of the main reasons I like his work so much

[Boromir88]

Well, from the way this thread has been set up by lmp (and I guess it was intentional ) is that there is no "correct" answer. All of them really are good choices. In fact, I think the list should be expanded...what about Gandalf and/or Aragorn who were great deceivers themselves! Making Sauron believe they were going to use the Ring to overthrow him, but instead sneak in 2 little hobbits to destroy it. Talk about deception!

Anyway as far as my vote for Saruman. To add onto some of the points...sure you can question parts of Tolkien's letters. But the specific part, from Letter 210, Raynor uses I think fits perfectly in line with LOTR.

Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject, by free will and reason, both his voice while speaking and its after-impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers.

If we look at Saruman being able to completely fool Radagast and have Gandalf 'blinded' up until Saruman imprisons him; that is quite impressive. Sure, it's mentioned Gandalf was having some wariness as far as what Saruman was up to, but it's clear Gandalf still trusted Saruman up until his imprisonment:

"At first I feared, as Saruman no doubt intended, that Radagast had also fallen. Yet I had caught no hint of anything wrong in his voice or in his eye at our meeting. If I had, I should never have gone to Isengard, or I should have gone more warily. So Saruman guessed, and he had concealed his mind and deceived his messenger."~The Council of Elrond

Saruman is such an effective liar he completely deceives Radagast, which leads Gandalf to Isengard completely unaware that Saruman is a traitor. As Gandalf says himself, when first hearing Saruman wanted to have a little chat:

"And that message brought me hope. For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order."~ibid

And the thing is, it's not only two co-workers Saruman tricks, it's virtually everyone, as everyone was surprised by Saruman's betrayal...

The 'wisest' of the Elves:

There was a silence. At last Elrond spoke again. "This is grievous news concerning Saruman." he said; "for we trusted him and he is deep in all our counsels..."~ibid

Men of Gondor and Rohan:

In this way Saruman began to behave as a lord of Men; for at first he held Isengard as a lieutenant to the Steward and warden of the tower. But Frealaf was as glad as Beren to have this so, and to know that Isengard was in the hands of a strong friend. A friend he long seemed, and maybe in the beginning he was one in truth. Though afterwards there was little doubt in men's minds that Saruman went to Isengard in hope to find the Stone still there, and with the purpose of building up a power of his own. Certainly after the last White Council (2953) his designs towards Rohan, though he hid them, were evil.~Appendix A: The House of Eorl

From this we see Saruman is able to fool mostly all the "good" people up until Gandalf tells the Council of his imprisonment. It wasn't until afterwards when everyone realized Saruman had been deceiving them all and hiding his true intent. Afterall he had Rohan's trust, and Denethor had been counseling his father to listen to Saruman. But, can't put it any better than Gandalf's words to the Council of Elrond:

"Gandalf the grey caught like a fly in a spider's treacherous web! Yet even the most subtle spiders may leave a weak thread."

Saruman revealed his "true" mind to Gandalf, in hopes of persuading him, this backfired and Saruman's intentions became known. But, up until that point, boy what a 'treacherous web' Saruman did weave. Can you imagine how long he could have kept up his web of deceits had Gandalf not escaped?

Getting back to Letter 210 and Saruman 'corrupting the reasoning abilities', I wanted to point out this interesting part from The Voice of Saruman. First, let me add at this time Saruman's power was in a decline:

"But I fear your voice has lost its charm."~Theoden

I can go on and pull out all these various quotes where it shows Saruman holding the Men of Rohan under his 'sway' but the one section which I think truly highlights Tolkien's point in Letter 210 is here:

So great was the power that Saruman exerted in this last effort that none that stood within hearing were unmoved. But now the spell was wholly different. They heard the gentle remonstrance of a kindly king with an erring but much-loved minister. But they were shut out, listening at a door overhearing athe elusive discourse of their elders, and wondering how it would afferct their lot. Of loftier mould these two were made: reverend and wise. It was inevitable that they should make alliance. Gandalf would ascend into the tower, to discuss deep things beyond their comprehension in the high chambers of Orthanc. The door would be closed, and they would be left outside, dismissed to await allotted work or punishment. Even in the mind of Theoden the thought took shape, like a shadow of doubt: 'He will betray use; he will go - we shall be lost.'~The Voice of Saruman

Saruman's power is waning, yet his last effort was so effective he was able to weave a seed of doubt into everyone who could hear him. Theoden just got done telling Saruman to buzz off and he even had a thought that Gandalf would ally with Saruman!

I like morm's point about Grima, and considered him, since he is a Man. But, what made me ultimately chose Saruman was the fact that Grima was Saruman's pawn.

[Nogrod]

I must say I really approved of Bêthberry's point on Tolkien being the master deceiver in the first place - as well as Boro's points about Gandalf being a master as well.

But if we need to choose between the choices given to us by lmp I'd still say that the real choice is between Sauron and Wormtongue - even if I do appreciate now more some of the arguments made in favour of Saruman.

But in the end this sure is a question of a larger scale interpretation which is always open to doubt.

But let me just ask you "the defenders of Saruman" how on earth do you come to an outcome where Saruman is the most effective liar if he himself is completely fooled by Sauron?

Saruman thinks he has a chance to world domination and Sauron feeds his dreams to make him an auxiliary in his own war against the free races promising him might - and letting him believe he can be the master of his own destiny. Surely Saruman would have been disposable as soon as the time would have been ripe for it. But it was advantageous for Sauron to let Saruman to believe he was an independent player on the map who could have his own moves. So he was lured to be a pawn of Sauron. Now that I would call effective lying.

Yes Saruman was a maia but so was Sauron - and Gandalf. But who of them was the most powerful? It would be hard to see that even Gandalf in his post-death might would have dared to confront Sauron. He did fool Sauron with his plan of the two hobbits entering Mordor to destroy the ring but unfortunately Gandalf was not among the choices we had.

And btw. it's not very fruitful to discuss whether Saruman could have destroyed a whole island of the greatest civilisation on the the Middle-Earth like Sauron did by lying as he didn't do it. The question of the most effective liar handles things that happened, not what someone could have done...

Also I think Raynor is right in asking whether things before the LotR are to be taken into account as lmp's original question concerned the LotR.

I myself took account of things not in the LotR and thence admit having spoken of wrong things.

But still I'd say it's Sauron (I voted him indeed) or then Wormtongue if we think of the handicap he had in power...

[Boromir88]

But let me just ask you "the defenders of Saruman" how on earth do you come to an outcome where Saruman is the most effective liar if he himself is completely fooled by Sauron?~Nogrod

How can Sauron be the 'most effective liar' if he is completely fooled by Gandalf et all? The 'effective' deceivers get deceived themselves.

But anyway, I disagree that Sauron was the one who fooled Saruman...Saruman wore some boots that were too big and deceived himself. Sauron just used it to his advantage.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

If we look at Saruman being able to completely fool Radagast and have Gandalf 'blinded' up until Saruman imprisons him; that is quite impressive. Sure, it's mentioned Gandalf was having some wariness as far as what Saruman was up to, but its clear Gandalf still trusted Saruman up until his imprisonment.

And why is this a great accomplishment? Gandalf had no reason to believe that Saruman had joined forces with Sauron, so he obviously believed Saruman wanted to talk with him, which Saruman did.

It was not Sauron who physically destroyed Numenor. As for its moral decay, it began even before him.

That's right, but he was a key figure that played a significant role in the island's downfall.


What I've been trying to point out was that even though Grima and Saruman are both effective liars, but both failed to gain anything by it.

-Gandalf didn't join Saruman when he was given the choice, and escaped even when Saruman imprisoned him.

-Saruman and Grima had temporary hold over Théoden, but even that proved to be of little consequence.

-Even though Saruman lied to the Witch King it's still debatable whether the Nazgul knew he was lying or not. They just didn't stay around to argue with him.

Sauron's achievements are far greater then that of Saruman's or Grima's. I'll just stick with the facts and not his debatable achievements.

-Sauron effectively lied to the Elven smiths to create the great rings.

-Sauron fooled all the leaders of Middle Earth to take the rings. These people are supposed to be the leaders of each race!

-Even though he didn't ensnare all the leaders, as he had wished, Sauron still gained the service of the nine great kings of men, to become his greatest servants.

-Sauron also fooled Aragorn into believing that Arwen was dead.
Why do you think he is called Sauron the deceiver?

This is only my opinion
What about the Mouth of Sauron? It is my belief that Sauron could speak through this person, and it is plain to see that the Mouth of Sauron fooled all but Aragorn at the Black Gate.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

And why is this a great accomplishment? Gandalf had no reason to believe that Saruman had joined forces with Sauron, so he obviously believed Saruman wanted to talk with him, which Saruman did.

Gandalf did not expect Saruman to imprison him; furthermore, Boro's post most likely refers to Gandalf believing Saruman and his lies for over 160 years - together with the rest of the White Council.

What I've been trying to point out was that even though Grima and Saruman are both effective liars, but both failed to gain anything by it.

Saruman managed to have the White Council do his bidding; he even managed to play Sauron for a while, after Sauron thought he had him in his hand.

-Gandalf didn't join Saruman when he was given the choice, and escaped even when Saruman imprisoned him.

Nor did Saruman expect Gandalf to do that.

-Saruman and Grima had temporary hold over Théoden, but even that proved to be of little consequence.

I wouldn't downplay his works so easily; were it not for Gandalf the White, Rohan would have been most likely lost.

Originally Posted by Letter #156

Of course [Gandalf] remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Theoden, nor with Saruman.

-Even though Saruman lied to the Witch King it's still debatable whether the Nazgul knew he was lying or not.

Then again, what matters in this thread is who is the most effective liar. The Witch-king episode is a perfect example of that.

Sauron's achievements are far greater then that of Saruman's or Grima's. I'll just stick with the facts and not his debatable achievements.

As said previously, Saruman didn't buy Sauron's lies - quite the contrary. On the other hand, Sauron and his servants were mislead by Saruman. Another example of who was the most effective liar.

-Sauron effectively lied to the Elven smiths to create the great rings.

Given their propensity towards Magic/Machine, a hobbit might have corrupted them . They wanted to believe, they were one of the easiest preys.

-Sauron fooled all the leaders of Middle Earth to take the rings. These people are supposed to be the leaders of each race!

I don't think there is conclusive evidence that he deceived them in person - thus he might have a split merit at best in this situation.

-Sauron also fooled Aragorn into believing that Arwen was dead.

What do you mean?

[Groin Redbeard]

Raynor, you and I are going back and forth at each other not getting anywhere. We make good arguments and all the other person can do is come along and say: "that's not true, here's what really happened." Our minds are closed to each others logic, and I think it's time we agree to disagree with each other.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

-Sauron also fooled Aragorn into believing that Arwen was dead.

What about the Mouth of Sauron? It is my belief that Sauron could speak through this person, and it is plain to see that the Mouth of Sauron fooled all but Aragorn at the Black Gate.

I think both of these are only in the movie...

[Galendor]

For me, its definitely between Sauron and Saruman. Plenty of great evidence for both has been given. But, even after his defeat and the fall of Sauron, Saruman didn't miss a beat and went straight to the Shire, were he continued to advance his own agenda through deceit and manipulation. So my vote goes to Saruman as the most effective liar.

[MatthewM]

Why is Boromir even in this poll? Why is Denethor? Come on, they are not bad guys. Their situations are completely different, with the Ring and all. I could *maybe* see you making a case of Denethor, but definitely not Boromir. That's why nobody has voted for him. Because he does not belong there as a choice, in my opinion.

Anyway, I voted for Gollum. His lie did help save Middle earth, after all...

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Saruman thinks he has a chance to world domination and Sauron feeds his dreams to make him an auxiliary in his own war against the free races promising him might - and letting him believe he can be the master of his own destiny.

I don't think that Sauron fed his dreams through lies. In fact, as UT tells us, he was furious to find out about Saruman lying and misleading his servants, but he had to bid his time. I don't know that Sauron promised Saruman any might; but even if he did, it didn't matter because Saruman still didn't believe him - which is what concerns this thread: the Jack-of-all-trades still planned and tried to usurp and replace Sauron and he still mislead his servants. Thus, Sauron's lies were ineffectual, since what he accomplished through them, if he did use them, was to have a snake in his own house, wrongfully trusted for some while.

So he was lured to be a pawn of Sauron.

I don't think there was any luring of Saruman by Sauron to use the palantir - which is what trapped him. Later, Sauron used persuasion (which does not necessarily imply lying, we have no evidence of that, and even if it were, as pointed previously, it didn't work, quite the contrary) and daunting - not lying.