Finduilas and the Doom of Turin

[Son of Númenor]

In my mind, the chief negative consequence of Turin's failure to heed Gwindor's advice was his happening upon Nienor, and their resultant marriage. Turin's death seemed imminent regardless, a fate given him by a power much greater than his own - but what Turin represents (imo) is the ancient ideal of personal honor and incorruption as virtues of far greater importance than whether one lives or dies - which makes his unnatural marriage infinitely worse than death in battle, death by torture, or anything else Morgoth could have devised.

Why did Gwindor mention Finduilas specifically? Why not tell him not to fall in love with the naked girl running through the forest, or something else more directly related to his final fate? I think that the Finduilas strand is a 'What if...?' which Tolkien left vague intentionally - another layer of the misty veil surrounding the predestined fall of his tragic hero.

[Aiwendil]

I've not the time at the moment to give this question the thoughtful reply that it deserves; one point however:

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I believe that every version of the Finduilas story emphasizes that Turin did not love her other than as a friend and did not have any desire to wed her.

I'm not so sure. I don't have the books at hand at the moment, but my impression from the texts (and from the UT version in especial) is that Turin was chiefly reluctant to court Finduilas out of respect for, and a desire not to betray, Gwindor. Also, I recall that he was afraid he would bring his curse upon her. So I see Turin as attracted indeed to Finduilas, but holding himself back from wedding her for these (actually rather admirable) reasons.

[Findegil]

What Aiwendil assuemd for the version in UT was true for sure in the version of the story in The Lay of the Children of Húrin.

But in my oppinion that does not really matter. Let's assume that Túrin would have followed his heart and rescued Finduilas instead of going to Dor-lómin. What would have happend next? He would have brought the rescued fugitives of Nargothrond to some save habour. This would probably have been Doriath, because that is were the fugitives of Nargorthrond that surivived in the story as we have it went too. There he would at least have leaned about the fatfull search of Morwen and Niënor. He would that have been out on a search by himself for sure. And even if he would have landed in the end in Brethil with his witness sister runing to him, would he not then have been aware of who she could be?

And as to Túrins fate: He killed himself as his sisiter had done when he at last recognised the truth of Brandirs words. That means that the fateful mariage was in the end what killed him not the dragon, nor any other foe. So what ever would have happend, if this marriage had not been, because Túrin would have rescued Finduilas his fate would have been otherwise.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Mithadan]

Alas, my thread is being hijacked onto a tangent and I will be a willing part of it, paticularly because the tangent relates to the initial subject. I do want to hear what people have to say regarding the initial topic: how could saving Finduilas avert Turin's doom? Son of Numenor comes up with an interesting idea that I will respond to after giving others a chance to put in their two pence.

Aiwendil, I am tempted to accuse you of raising a question that you know the answer to. CoH and the Silmarillion both state that Turin did not return Finduilas' love. Unfinished Tales offers no help as the section of Narn i hin Hurin that would have addressed this issue is not included; the text defers to the published Silmarillion. Confident that what was published in the Silmarillion would be confirmed in earlier versions, I went directly to Shaping Middle Earth and found that Turin loved Finduilas but feared entangling her in his doom. Later versions of the Tale addressed in The War of the Jewels are substantially similar to the earlier versions, Turin loves Finduilas but fears his love. Nor do the commentaries in War of the Jewels express any regret regarding CT's final treatment of the subject in the Silmarillion as he sometimes does. I have not checked all other commentaries.

So the NEW issue becomes, where did the conception of these events found in the Silmarillion and CoH come from? Where is the source material for this version of the story? Does it come from Tokien in some unpublished text or is it CT's own view of where his father would eventually come out on this issue?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Mithadan, perhaps you overlooked the fragments of "Turin in Nargothrond" which were published in UT as part of the appendices to the Narn, where the Turin/Gwindor/Finduilas triangle is covered at some length (pp. 155-159). There we find

...but against her will her love for Turin grew day by day....yet she knew he had no love of the kind she wished. His heart and mind were elsewhere

and so on; all repeated essentially verbatim in CoH. This is a slight modification of the story in the Grey Annals from a few years before, where Turin indeed loved Finduilas, but refused to 'taint' her (or betray Gwindor).

More to the specific point of Gwindor's foresight and the Doom: in UT p. 159 CT says "of the Battle of Tumhalad and the sack of Nargothrond there is no other account," sc. than that used in the Silmarillion, which in fact is that of the Grey Annals (XI. 85), where Gwindor's prophecy appears, and so that text, the published Silmarillion, and the CoH are close to identical.

(with one puzzling exception: the paragraph which appears at the bottom of CoH p. 176, repeating the Silmarillion, does not have any antecedent I can identify ["Then the warriors of Nargothrond went forth, and tall and terrible on that day looked Turin...."])

[Mithadan]

You are correct, William. I did overlook that discussion of what CT terms a somewhat fragmentary text but which reads rather well. So now we know where the Silmarillion version of the tale, that Turin did not love Finduilas, derives from. But this underscores the original question, why would rescuing Finduilas have averted Turin's doom? This statement was a dying declaration of Gwindor and smacks of foresight. What could Gwindor have foreseen? Certainly not that Turin would wed Finduilas and as a result somehow escape Morgoth's curse. It is appears clear that this would not have occurred, if we accept what appears in UT as the final version of this part of the tale. Could it be as simple as Son of Numenor suggests?

[Aiwendil]

Sorry if I've led this discussion a bit off-topic, but I do think, as Mithadan says, that the issue of Turin's love for Finduilas is quite important to the main question he raised.

I'm afraid that my memory led me awry earlier; the quote I was thinking of was not in the UT 'Narn' but in GA.

But I am still not convinced that in the UT version, Turin does not love Finduilas. I've just re-read the relavant 'Narn' fragments and I do not find a clear statement to this effect. Yes, Finduilas herself does claim that "Túrin loves me not; nor will," but we don't necessarily know that she is correct (even if Gwindor seems to agree). It seems to me that in this fragmentary version of the account of Turin in Nargothrond, the relationship among Gwindor, Finduilas, and Turin has become quite nuanced and rather complex. I don't think that any of the three is quite able to see the entire truth of the situation, and certainly none can be considered an objective reporter of the facts. Nonetheless, reading this version in isolation, one certainly does find the element of Turin's love for Finduilas significantly downplayed, if (perhaps) not completely excised. Still, it must be remembered that this version is, after all, fragmentary. It's difficult to guess whether, or how, the situation would have been cast in a different light had Tolkien completed this section. (Note also the references to Finduilas in the later parts of the 'Narn', particularly Turin's reaction on learning of her death; of course, these portions were written earlier and are more closely associated with GA).

But let's consider how this relates to Mithadan's original question. Gwindor's warning to Turin appears in GA but not in the 'Narn'; the Battle of Tumhalad was not reached in that text. Now, Tolkien might or might not have included it had he finished the 'Narn'; we cannot say. But it seems to me that as long as we are evaluating the import of Gwindor's words, we must evaluate them within the context of the texts in which they appear. In GA (and earlier), it certainly does make perfect sense to suppose that Turin would have wedded Finduilas if he had saved her.